It's been driving me nuts for a while when Heathens act like the Eddas and sagas are books of law and must be believed to the T. I personally prefer to study the Anglo Saxon myths seeing as they have not been near as altered but even then I don't act is it's all 100% truth and such or a book of law to be fallowed. so why is there so many people out there that always refer to the Eddas and sagas in every endeavor? the funny thing is is I also noticed that most of the people who do those are also Loki haters. it drives me nuts why do they do it are they still Christian to a degree?
Loki's father was F?rbauti who was a god his mother was Laufey a jot tun. he is half giant and also keep in mind that there is more then one race of gods Freyja and Freyr are not ?sir either does that mean they are not god's? that bring me to another question when people use the whole Loki's half Jottun thing against him why do the not mention Odin being half Jottun himself?
Heathen Princess. you realize you did exactly what I had said annoys me right? you sat there and immediately referred to the Eddas and lore. I also the Anglo Saxons called Loki leoht. I once upon a time was part of a theod and had worked my way from ??ow to a gesi?a I know there ways all to well and the reason I left was because it wasn't for me in the end. yes they have many different tells but they also have many of the same with slight differences. nothing is set in stone you do not reside in the realm of gods so how do you know what has or has not occurs in it? maybe you should try the less aggressive approach with people it would do you so much more good I have done you no wrong yet multiple times you have shown me aggression. I believe in keeping the Frith with most Heathens but have grown weary of your aggression.
It is Recon Heathens and Asatru. However, there are non-Recon Heathens as well, who accept a lot of unverified personal nosies. For instance, in the argument over whether Loki is a god or not, it seems a Recon will most often start from the assumption that he's not, then require proof that he is. Well, a lot has been lost. If you're not going to accept any personal guesswork, it's my opinion that there won't be enough of a system there for spiritual development through an entire lifetime. But, that's my personal opinion as an Eclectic Pagan who happens to honor some heathen deities.
You are right in one thing: the Eddas are very christian influenced. That's why a real recon Heathen will have to take them with a grain of salt, compare them to material sources and cross-reference them to oblivion and back.
But Anglo-Saxon mustn'Tonto very well into strict Norse recon heathery, since they are in many things very different.
Another point that you seem not to have considered is the difference between Asatru and recon Norse heatheryRyhey're drifting further and further apart.
If I had to give you one simple, generalised answer to your question - why do so many Heathens and Asatruar cling onto two books - because it's convenient!
Isn't it nice to have a "truth" written in a book and every time your belief is challenged, run to that book and use it as a proof?
Sadly the things are nowhere near as simple and easy.
The answerer above me is correct in saying that too much has been lost. UPG is your friend, I'm afraid.
My goodness! Distance yourself from such people or help them study or, well, I don't know *quite* what to do with people like that myself. However, it is important for you to remember that everyone is entitled to their own path so you should not vilify them or argue too much with them. UNLESS, of course, they are maligning the names of the deities, in which case you need to stand strong. Just make sure you have all your facts straight first - or find someone else to gently correct them.
Some people who would be Heathens are no different than some who would be christian or Muslim or any other faith - they are Heathen in name only and don't have a clear understanding of the appropriate use of any of the Eddur or even an understanding of the nature of the deities themselves. They're either still learning or doing to our faith what their kind have done to the satanists for years - trying to be "cool". (Believe it or not, we're quite fashionable right now. Huh. Odd.)
I would gently remind them that the Eddur were written down by Christians and we study the archaeological record, anthropology, Christianity and the geopolitical and socioeconomic climates of the time they were first written down to help separate christian pollution from those things our ancestors truly believed and/or practiced. This is also why we jump for joy when a rare Muslim account of our ancestors pops up - they didn't try and interject their faith over ours, they just observed us and wrote "what is WRONG with these people?" in a basic kind of way. This is also why we love it when new, old rune stones are found and old burial mounds are found. I hate disturbing ancestors, but I'm sure they'd understand as long as their bones were treated with respect. The simple truth of the matter is the Eddur have ALL been polluted. Only by educating ourselves can we separate those parts that have been from those that have not. Which is why education is so important to all of us, though not all actually educate themselves. (I hope that made sense. LOL! My English skills have been spotty lately. I'm homesick - in Winter! Stayin' right here, thanks.)
If they are Loki-haters, then they don't even really know who he is. They have no idea of how important he is in our pantheon or to the human spirit, period. Without Loki and his shenanigans Asgard would not have its wall, O?dinn would not have Gungnir or Sleipneir, ?orr would not have Mjolnir, and on and on and on. Loki is responsible for a lot of the treasures of Asgard either directly or indirectly. That's impressive. But what's most important to us right now is what has always drawn me to him in the first place - He really is closest to human nature.
The Loki-haters are most likely still trying to find "good" and "evil" in things and haven't realized yet those things don't really exist outside of the Abrahamic faiths (and a few others). After a while they'll either go back to their original faiths or they'll learn. All we can do is give them a wide berth or help them study and learn. If they're not willing to study or learn, just steer clear.
I have to say I haven't encountered any Edda literalism's so far.
Irrespective of Christian interference the Eddas and sagas are essentially collections of fireside stories and songs to be told to warm the bones a little on a cold night. Taking it as being 100% literal is 100% missing the point, it's a bit like someone watching Eastenders 1000 years from now and thinking everyone in the 21st century spoke with a cockneys accent and eventually got run over by a car.
There are never the less, tidbits of moral understanding to be gleaned from these stories, all good stories contain such things, but most of the people I know doing this are also using anthropological studies, archaeological evidence and contemporary 3rd party accounts as well.
As for Loki, well it is fair to say he is not of Aesir blood, so by the strictest interpretation he's not a god, but then neither is Mimir, Skadhi, Aegir etc etc and as someone already pointed out almost all the treasures of Asgardh are a result of Loki's misbehavior. On top of this his role in the prophesy of Ragnarok isn't that dissimilar from that of Sutr and no-one wastes any time claiming Sutr is in any way evil yet his actions in that prophesy are by modern standards worse than anything Loki does.
No academically based Recon (which one has to be in order to BE recon) believes that the Eddas are literal in any way, shape or form. In fact we approach it from a literary standpoint in order to dissect time they were written, pentameter to sift through what was added and what wasn't and we understand that the Edda's are simply an over view of the most popular myths. They are not universal or are they by far the only ones that existed. The Edda's are a launching pad in order to understand the Saga's which give us a MUCH better view into the daily lives, world views and actions of our ancestors. The Edda's are a reference point.
I will add a quote from a scholar in Denmark that am acquainted with:
"As I already indicated above religion and mythology changed heavily during the period from 0 AD to 1300 AD. Not only in terms of the conversion to Christianity, but also in terms of societal change. The gods and the structure of the pantheon most probably changed to fit the conditions of a new power structure, when the king became more powerful in later Germanic society.
There was no standardized form on mythological information like we know it from the comprehensible Snorra Edda or even the more disintegrated information from the Eddic poems. As the Germanic peoples first became fully acquainted with literacy when Christianity came along, there is no reason to assume that an intellectualized and structuralist system of mythological information was particularly prevalent in the broader discourse of Germanic and Old Norse religion. Certain tribe and communities may have had an internally understood order of, say the pantheon, but it is hardly likely that it existed through several generations. What there was, was tales about gods and certain concepts attributed to certain gods ? which could even change over time too.
In terms of cult and ritual, there was also a wide variety. For one thing, the cult varied over time. For another, even in the same period, it may have varied considerably over geographical distances, but also across sub-Germanic cultural borders. There was what we may term as a private cult and a public cult, which may not have corresponded much with each other.
The information about the religion and mythology which is revealed in post-conversion source (which approximates to 98%) is merely a wash-off of what once was. Aside from this, it is most certain that what appears in the sagas and Eddas, and other Icelandic sources, is only what fits into a Christian worldview, unless it is there to provide some kind of Periclean for the author. However, what we may be sure of is that it partakes in a greater discourse about Germanic and Scandinavian mythology and religion that may be understandable to at least a Viking Era heathen. It is this discourse that is interesting in terms of modern heathenry."
There is also a very large debate on whether Loki is a god or not. It is not about "bloodline" it is about worth. Skadi would be Aesir through marriage as would Gerd, ect. The only reference we have of actual fostering of Loki is in the Eddas which you have just stated is not a viable source of information on an absolute level.
The idea of Loki being "chaos" or "dark" is a claim that was made in the 1970's and has no historical evidence what so ever. In fact we find very little about Loki in archeological evidence short of a stove plate. There are no towns named after him, no cults that we know of, no heros named after him as is found in the other gods. But for the sake of arguement let's say the Edda's are correct in this instance and Loki is a god.
Loki is now an outlaw. We know this because the lore that we have states that he betrayed the gods to the point that he was strapped to a rock to have venom drip on him for all enternity (or until Ragnarok if you buy into that). This would stip him of any worth or status that he might have held in the Aesir tribe. This would "ban" him so to speak of any worship or honor per the honor codes of the Heathen worldview.
Either way Loki is SoL. I don't hate him. He has no bearing on me at all because of the above statements. Outlaw means OUTLAWed. Out of the law.
I am about as far from Christian as one can get. I can say that it irks me people will bash recons but have no issue using the research that WE dig up and apply with in essays and books in Heathenry so that "non-recon's" can have a friggin' clue.
ETA: they are all Jotun. Look at thier family tree. I specifically stated that my stance had nothing to do with Loki's bloodline and everything to do with his worth and social standing with in the Aesir tribe.
The Aesir tribe was not the only divine tribe. We know this from the war with the Vanir, of which Freyr, Freyja and Njord came from. The war was a draw so hostages were exchanged. I doubt the Aesir would call it quits and truce with something that wasn't thier equal. There are plently of historical studies on the movement and merging of the Vanir tribe and the Aesir tribe with theories on possible clash of cultures.
Loki is also strictly Norse/Icelandic. He does not exist in Germanic and Anglo lore and mythos.
Why do so many Heathens/Asatru do this?
It is Recon Heathens and Asatru. However, there are non-Recon Heathens as well, who accept a lot of unverified personal nosies. For instance, in the argument over whether Loki is a god or not, it seems a Recon will most often start from the assumption that he's not, then require proof that he is. Well, a lot has been lost. If you're not going to accept any personal guesswork, it's my opinion that there won't be enough of a system there for spiritual development through an entire lifetime. But, that's my personal opinion as an Eclectic Pagan who happens to honor some heathen deities.
