This is something that has always confused me. I'm an atheist but I was brought up a Catholic and studied the idea of Purgatory and hell at university (though admittedly from a Medieval perspective), and I've always wondered about this idea of not being baptized meaning you spend eternity in hell/Limbo (as catholic doctrine says).
Before Jesus and the harrowing of hell released them, everyone went to spend eternity with the devil because none of them had been baptized (and so were still tainted by original sin and so on), and when Jesus died he died to forgive the world of original sin. So, why do Christians (and particularly Catholics) still believe that the unbaptized spend eternity in Limbo or Hell? Surely no-one would go there for lack of a baptism after Jesus had been crucified, as they were no longer tainted by original sin (which is, after all, what Jesus died to forgive), and surely baptism becomes redundant as it's original role was to remove the stain of original sin on the individual - something removed by the Crucifixion?
Because it's a mind control cult and they are facing stiff competition. It's all about niche marketing and competition for limited resources (i.e. adherents and their bank accounts).
Fear, ignorance, and stylized cult rituals help ensure obedience, compliance to the will of the cult. Society is slowing opening its eye though. Look how long they got away with raping children. People are finally opening their eyes to what these mind control cults really are.
All of those are strictly Catholic teachings. They are not in the bible.
Catholics think we are all born guilty (thus limbo) the bible tells that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3. Babies can't sin, thus they go to heaven
This same guilt consciousness makes them think we cannot be saved as the bible says, by faith alone, that we must "work off our sin". THIS is strictly umbilical. If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that he was raised from the dead....you will be saved - Romans 10:13
Branch out and look at Seventh-day Adventist teaching. They will clear up this mystery from the Scriptures; I guarantee it. Hell just burns until it purifies the earth of all traces of evil and then it goes out. 2 Peter 3. Malachi 4.
I am a Christian, and I do not believe in Purgatory WHATSOEVER! I believe when you die, you are DEAD! Not floating around in Purgatory. A person stays dead until the second coming of Jesus Christ, where the righteous are resurrected & judge the wicked for 1,000 years (the millennium described in the book of Revelations).
I ALSO do not understand this idea of Purgatory. I'd like somebody to give a passage in the Bible where it says that Purgatory happens. And I said the Bible, not a Catholic school book.
Catholicism is false and "purgatory" is false. Catholicism cannot get anyone into heaven. Forget what they said. Water baptism doesn't save anybody, water baptism doesn't get anybody into heaven or to avoid hell.
Those before Jesus were saved by looking ahead to Jesus to save. We can only be saved by believing in Jesus.
Jesus is God, and Jesus loves you so very much! And the Trinity is true! Jesus is the Messiah!
The truth about Jesus is that the only way to be saved and to get into heaven and avoid being sent to hell, is by believing in JESUS for His free gift of eternal life in heaven, believing in faith alone that Jesus, who is God, died on the cross for all our sins as FULL PAYMENT for all our sins, and then Jesus rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Believe in Jesus for His free gift of salvation, and you will be in heaven, no matter what! John 3:16, John 6:47!
Salvation is a FREE GIFT that happens in a split second when you believe in JESUS for His free gift of salvation! It is impossible to lose or "leave" salvation (John 6:39-40, John 10:28, 1 John 5:13).
Please pray now: "Jesus, I believe that You died on the cross to pay for my sins and that You rose from the dead, and I thank You for eternal life!" You will be in heaven with Him forever when you die!
For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.
Baptismal regeneration is not a biblical concept. Baptism does not save from sin but from a bad conscience. In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter clearly taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
It is complex, salvation is an undeserved free gift, so no one can say theta he has a right Twp enter Heaven, We start from here, then, if one was good, God who is Just and merciful will always take into account ones good deeds and desired. The good will be much better placed than you Can ever imagine Eben if they were not baptized.
Well, you've got the doctrine a bit wrong here. When Jesus died on the cross, yes he forgave men of their sins, but people still have to turn to him for salvation.Those who believe in him are not condemned but those who don't believe are condemned already (says John chapter 3). No, I don't believe someone has to be physically baptized in water in order to avoid hell, but yes, they must believe in Christ as their personal Savior and trust that he died for them on the cross in order for them to escape hell.
Dead people before Jesus were held at a hold place that Jesus went to to release them after His death.
Purgatory:
2 Samuel 12:13-18
13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also has taken away your sin: you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because you have given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to you, shall surely die. 15 And Nathan returned to his house. The Lord also struck the child which the wife of Urias had borne to David, and his life was despaired of. 16 And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground. 17 And the ancients of his house came, to make him rise from the ground: but he would not, neither did he eat meat with them. 18 And it came to pass on the seventh day that the child died: and the servants of David feared to tell him, that the child was dead. For they said: Behold when the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he would not hearken to our voice: how much more will he afflict himself if we tell him that the child is dead?
[punishment of sins after forgiveness]
[nothing unclean enters Heaven]
Hebrews 12:22-23
22 But you have come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, 23 and to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,
[spirits of the just made perfect]
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
[after death and suffers loss but is saved... can't be hell because you can't get out of hell... can't be Heaven because there is no "loss" in Heaven... must be another place...]
Matthew 5:48
48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 12:32
32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
[ there is an age to come of forgiveness ]
Matthew 18:32-35
32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."
[ where can we go that is like jail, that we stay until we pay all our debt? ]
IN SUMMARY
there is punishment for sin even after one has been forgiven. we have to be perfect as the father is perfect for nothing unclean will enter Heaven. there is some way or process by which the spirits of just men are made perfect. there is a place beside heaven and hell where you can suffer loss, yet be saved, but only as through fire, and where you can be forgiven of sins from a previous age, and where you will not get out until you have paid your entire debt.
The Bible hell is just the grave. When Jesus went to resurrect Lazarus, he said he was resting or sleeping, NOT being burned somewhere. A fiery hell is from Greek mythology. However, fire in the Bible is a symbol of complete destruction. After something is burned, a log for example, does it burn forever? or is it merely gone forever? In Revelation the Lake of Fire means the second death. Rev. 20:14, 21:8;...
Jesus sacrifice only covers our sins if we repent and do God's will.
Virgil is the virtuous pagan who went to hell due to not being baptized. There are several types of Baptism. There is Baptism by water (most common) Baptism by Fire (just before Judgment Day) There is also a Baptism for pagans who are martyred for upholding christian beliefs. There is also a Baptism for those who have never been introduced to the idea of God. I think it's called Baptism by Ignorance, but I'm not sure.
What the churches teach and what the bible teaches are often two very different things. The bible contains the original Christianity taught by Jesus where the words purgatory and limbo and this concept are never mentioned.
The bible simply states that hades(Greek for hell) or Sheol(Hebrew for hell) are the common grave of mankind and are explained briefly in Ecclesiastes 9:5,10..."for the living are conscious that they will die, but the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,....for there is no work ..knowledge, wisdom, in Sheol the place to which you are going."
After Jesus' death the hope of a resurrection back to life (on a paradise earth) was then held out for all mankind. We read this at Acts 24:15.."there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."
Don't try to understand Christianity. Christianity was not founded on Truth.
Ask your questions to DISCIPLES OF JESUS and they will give you truthful answers.
I am a disciple and servant of Jesus Christ and the words of Jesus said,
In the beginning they were deceived by Satan, he was the first to commit murder and lied about what he had done, many then learn to do as Satan did, and as they died Satan claimed their souls (spirits) for his kingdom of hell, they where deceived and falsely taken by Satan. They where lost and God sent the Christ (Jesus) to find these Lost souls.
They where deceived because Satan told them that if they sacrificed the innocent for atonement of their sins they would be forgiven and if they washed in water they would be cleansed of all sins.
Jesus came to bring us the Truth directly from God, and concerning baptism. True baptism was being baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT, Not with water.
John the Baptist baptized with water, but Jesus the Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit.
LEARN what it is that the Holy Ghost is to do on earth. John 14:25-26
DO YOU TRULY LOVE JESUS in your heart?
I pray that the Spirit of Truth shows you the truth concerning original sin, for in this truth you will be shown who you truly are, if you really love in your heart.
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I understand what you're saying, but in order for you to get the answer to your question, you must understand what hell really is, why Jesus died, whether or not we are still tainted by the original sin, and what the purpose of baptism is.
To begin, basis for believing in a burning hell or purgatory is not found anywhere in the Scriptures. In order for a person to be constantly tormented with fire, the dead person would have to be alive. But the Scriptures tell us that the dead are not alive; rather they are "conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) There's nothing inside the body that survives death because Genesis 2:7 indicates that every human does not have a soul but is a soul and Ezekiel 18:4 says: "The soul that is sinning - it itself will die." And Genesis 3:19 lets us know that 'dust we are and to dust we will return.' And besides, the idea of hell goes to contrary to God's nature. We know this because in Jeremiah 7:31, Jehovah God speaks of nations who burned their children as a part of their pagan worship, but He said that such burning was 'a thing he had not commanded' and something 'that had not come up into his heart.' So since the idea of burning people never came up into God's heart, why would he send people to a place that does just that?
Now, why did Jesus die? He did so because our forefather, Adam, passed down to all humans sin, imperfection, and death, and we desperately needed a Savior. (Romans 5:12) In fact, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says: "For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." So without Jesus' death, we would have no hope. So Jesus' death provides three things for us: the forgiveness of sins, a clean conscience before God, and the hope of living forever in a paradise earth. (Colossians 1:14; Hebrews 9:14; Romans 6:23) Jesus' death, therefore, did not remove the stain of sin but gave us hope that we would not have had otherwise.
Now, about the original sin. Are we still tainted by it? Yes. James 2:3 says: "We all stumble many times" and Romans 3:23 says: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Therefore, even after Jesus' death, we all are still sinners because we have been tainted by the original sin.
Now, on to baptism. Baptism, or water immersion, is the outward symbol of an individuals dedication to do God's will. "As you are submerged, or ?buried,? beneath the water, it is as though you have died to your former course of life. When you come up out of the water, it is as if you are emerging to a new life, one that is governed by God?s will and not your own. Of course, that does not mean that you will make no more mistakes, for all of us are imperfect and therefore sin daily. However, as a dedicated, baptized servant of Jehovah, you will have entered into a special relationship with him. Because of your repentance and your humble submission to baptism, Jehovah is willing to forgive your sins on the basis of Jesus? ransom sacrifice. Baptism thus leads to a clean conscience before God.?1 Peter 3:21."* Therefore, the role of baptism is not to remove the stain of original sin but to show that you have dedicated your life to God. Therefore, individuals getting baptized will never become redundant.
- I hope this has answered your question. I know you're an atheist but if you have an open mind and would like to have these matters explained to you further, feel free to speak to Jehovah's Witnesses in your area.
First, Catholics don't believe that the unbaptized go to Hell or to "Limbo." That has never at any point been a teaching of The Church. It was something that some people over the centuries speculated about, but the pope finally put the matter to bed forever by saying that the Limbo of the Unbaptised does not exist.
Now, be careful you do not confuse "Limbo" with Purgatory, as those are two entirely separate things.
We need Purgatory for the following reasons ;
- God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful
- God's justice demands that that everyone be punished or rewarded according to what he deserves
- God must discipline His children as any good father does (it says so in Hebrews 12)
- nothing defiled can enter Heaven (see Revelations 21)
Purgatory is made possible by Jesus Christ, and it the final step in becoming ready to be in the full presence of God.
Think of it this way. If you get hit with an arrow, there are a few steps in order to save you ;
- take the arrow out
- clean the wound
- seal the wound
- dress and redress the wound, clean it again and again
- remove the stitches and send the patient home
Jesus died for our sins, which was like pulling the arrow out, but the wound needs to be tended to continually until such time as the patient is ready to go home. Purgatory is that last step, the last cleaning of the wound and removing the stitches until the patient is good as new and ready to go to Heaven. There is nothing "extra" about it just a conclusion to something Jesus started, because Jesus makes it possible.
Now, as stated, The Bible says that nothing impure can enter Heaven, so at some point, the unbaptized must get the taint of original sin removed, and that likely happens in Purgatory along with everyone else who is going to Heaven and needs "one last clean up."
This is something that has always confused me. I'm an atheist but I was brought up a Catholic and studied the idea of Purgatory and hell at university (though admittedly from a Medieval perspective), and I've always wondered about this idea of not being baptized meaning you spend eternity in hell/Limbo (as catholic doctrine says).
Before Jesus and the harrowing of hell released them, everyone went to spend eternity with the devil because none of them had been baptized (and so were still tainted by original sin and so on), and when Jesus died he died to forgive the world of original sin. So, why do Christians (and particularly Catholics) still believe that the unbaptized spend eternity in Limbo or Hell? Surely no-one would go there for lack of a baptism after Jesus had been crucified, as they were no longer tainted by original sin (which is, after all, what Jesus died to forgive), and surely baptism becomes redundant as it's original role was to remove the stain of original sin on the individual - something removed by the Crucifixion?
The Holy Spirit is like the internet. It brings people(enlightened beings) closer together, moving at or faster than the speed of light. Instead of having an Avatar and user name, which is how you exist on the internet, you have the Holy Spirit, or the Chakras. It is your body in Heaven, and it is pure light. I believe people can be Baptized into the Holy Spirit by simply being enlightened to it. And if that's true, I think it is something we can do over the internet. Just by teaching about it, so does people become enlightened to it, Baptizing them. I personnaly don't believe you absolutely NEED the ritual as Jesus did in order to recieve the Spirit. JMO. I should add my enlightenment and me having done the ritual were very closely linked. So it is an enigma for me. It was very soon after I was Baptized when my Chakras lit up, and I started to have one bonk-you-on-the-head prophetic dream after another, constantly dreaming lucidly (I still do from time to time). I think the ritual symbolizes what happened to Jesus, and if you follow him because you have faith in him, the same thing can happen to you. I can see how enlightenment to the Spirit can happen on both ends, yet it's still kind of an enigma to me. How can the Far East know of the Chakras(Holy Spirit) without the Christian ritual? That is why I am thinking we can Baptized people by teaching them over the intranetz. JMO
I think it's because it's compassion itself that is projected to a person, through the Chakras that enlightens. God's pure light of love, as well as others, can Baptize. I would reccomend praying to God for knowledge. I believe he can guide you through the untying of the Chakras. He is there for you. JMO
Last edited by Bag-Of-Hammers; 03-21-2011 at 02:41 AM.
I think it's because it's compassion itself that is projected to a person, through the Chakras that enlightens. God's pure light of love, as well as others, can Baptize. I would reccomend praying to God for knowledge. I believe he can guide you through the untying of the Chakras. He is there for you. JMO
THen again, it is through the lower Chakras that sexual feelings are projected as love is projected through the heart Chakra, so I guess the lower Chakras would be the pleasure-seeker's path to enlightent. Each Chakra is different, therefore there are different paths to the light. I think that's it. There are different paths to the truth about the Holy Spirit, and from there, one path to God as you seek the spirit, not the flesh.
Last edited by Bag-Of-Hammers; 03-21-2011 at 03:02 AM.
THen again, it is through the lower Chakras that sexual feelings are projected as love is projected through the heart Chakra, so I guess the lower Chakras would be the pleasure-seeker's path to enlightent. Each Chakra is different, therefore there are different paths to the light. I think that's it. There are different paths to the truth about the Holy Spirit, and from there, one path to God as you seek the spirit, not the flesh.
Though I am someone who had his done, starting with the top Chakra, when, soon after my Baptism, I went into a deep meditation on the universe being all in one place at all times, and I also meditated on the phylosophy of dying SPIRITUALLY, when my top Chakra lit up like torch, and initiated the untying. Which says to me that it is believing in the power of the Holy Spirit itself that innitiates the oncomming untying. Maybe it is the comming to understand a power that goes beyond, does it arise.hmmm
The Spirit is conciousness at it's most purest form, and that is Buddhism: An enlightenment to the very meaning of conciousness itself. Pure light. That is the Holy Spirit.
But I have to ask, was it the Top Chakra lighting up that brought on the contiplation? Or was it the contiplation that brought on the light.? Because, to be honest, I tend to think it was the light hitting my head that had me in the meditation .I think God called me into the contiplation. Which takes me back to the enigma. How is one Baptized into the Holy Spirit? Is it you calling him, or him calling you? Maybe it's both. But then you have Buddhism that doesn't contimplate God into the picture. ANd yet, the contiplation meditation had nothing to do with God either. The Chakras lighting/being baptized into the Holy Spirit has everything to do with being enlightened to the phylosophy. I believe God lights up your Chakra in a contiplative meditation by putting his light on you. I believe he helps to initiate it, but being enlightened to the boundlessness of the spirit is the real trigger.
Last edited by Bag-Of-Hammers; 03-21-2011 at 04:17 AM.
So it is the pohylosophy that you must adhere to. You must have faith(in Christ) that you can defeat death spiritually, and understand the boundlessness of the spirit in order to know and recieve God's and Buddha's compassion. It is through faith in the EXACT same phylosophies about conciousness itself will you be saved.
Something I don't understand about Christianity?
And the Trinity is true! Jesus is the Messiah!
