I have been trying to find a Church that I believe is correct, and its pretty dang hard. I am currently a member of the Church of Christ and I like it but I would like to see what else is out there. Out of ALL of the Churches that I have gone through the Orthodox Church is the one that I like most based on their doctrines. However, I have had some problems with stuff that I cant quite understand and its frustrating because I finally found a Church that I like and that I agree with and they have to do weird things in their service. I need help understanding the following things:
1) Prayer for the dead: they actually did this. Why do they do this it serves no purpose?
2) Prayer/Intercession of saints (do they not believe that they can pray straight to God)
3) Icons
4) They believe the Eucharist literally becomes the body and blood of Christ.
Being raised Protestant I can not grasp some of these things so any help would be amazing. And if someone could tell me about a Church that they believe is good I would like to know. Ive been to Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Lutheran, and Church of Christ.
Orthodox was the first christian religion. But like Catholicism today, it was based on paganism, and it has its faults as well. The best religion i think is Buddhism, its more a philosophy on how to live a good life and to be kind to others. It was around before Christianity so i thing it would be closer to the source of our existence. My family is Orthodox, but i read the book of Buddha and it confirmed all my thoughts about life. Try read it sometime.
First of all, do not look for the answer in a Church. You need to find God, and have a personal relationship with Him. In order to love someone you have to spend time with them and get to know them and their ways. The Bible teaches us about Him and all of His attributes. The more you know the more you understand. After all there will be NO denominational division in Heaven, just those who love, trust and believe in Him.
Let me ask you this... Is God about DEATH? Are those in heaven not alive? Does the bible not say we who believe are ALL linked together through our faith? Does the bible put limits on this by saying "those in heaven are of one group and those on Earth another and the 2 are NOT one body and are cut off from each other?"
Does the bible NOT say that we are brothers and sisters through Christ? That we are not all children of God? IF we on earth of children of God, sons and brothers of Christ.. does this stop when we get to heaven?
If God is not the God of death, if those in heaven are just as much alive, if not more than we are. If we are all brothers and sisters through God..then WHY can't we actually BELIEVE that and TRUST in that and finally ACT ON THAT and not let petty differences like one of us is in heaven and one is still on Earth get in the way of our communion with one another?
IF I can ask you for help, because you are alive. Why can't I ask someone in heaven, since THEY are alive? What if you are in another state or country and don't know everything that is going on.. does that STILL mean you can't hear my plea for help and based on my need alone.. intercede and pray for me or even with me over the phone to God?
Catholics simply don't see an arbitrary distinction between the two of us, via a phone praying for each other and someone in heaven.
Remember, when Elijiah and Moses appeared with Christ after his resurrection in front of some of the Apostles.. Both Elijiah and Moses were aware of Earthly events, showing that those in heaven are not mute and blind to us on Earth.
The Old Testament warns us against harming Children, because according to the OT, the children's angels always see the face of God (meaning they can talk to God about what they see on Earth)
Why if there is 1 mediator (Christ).. can we not ALSO ask for others to help us?
Like if Christ were the judge... and we should go through him..why can't we bring some friends along as character witnesses? - that might be a very poor analogy..but asking others doesn't diminish Christ's role.
It seems umbilical to say "Well I know a shortcut, I don't need ANYONE'S help.. I'll just go straight to Christ by myself, without Antone's help...I'm that good!
Finally, I'll say this.. asking others for help INCREASES faith in God and reliance on Jesus as a mediator. Asking for intercession does not strip Christ of his mediator role. It in fact AMPLIFIES it...if you think about it. If I pray to Christ and then ask YOU to pray to Christ, I just increased those seeking Christ. It is no different if during my own prayers I ask St. Michael..the Arch Angel to intercede and ask God for help. We now have 2 beings who believe that Christ is the mediator, seeking him out and expressing our faith.
The Old Testament shows people praying to Angels. It is biblical.
3) I'm not sure what you mean by Icons - do you mean relics? do you mean statues? - Human beings can grab inspiration from many sources. Visual reminders often times inspire us to be like them. Seeing a relic of the past or of a Saint can lead us to God by encouraging us to be like them.. and what did the people depicted in the statues and relics DO? They worshiped God, they believed in Jesus, they lived holy lives. So by seeing reminders of this.. we are encouraged along in our faith journey.
4) John chapter 6 (starting around verse 30) is sometimes called the "Bread of Life discourse" WHY? Because if you read it.. Jesus is taking a lot of time to go over this concept. He is lecturing them on the Eucharist. It is clear that the Apostles understood what he meant...because several of them LEFT over it.. saying "this is a hard teaching" and some weren't OK with what he was saying. Did Jesus chase after them? Did he say "Wait.. I mean it "symbolically" - don't run off!" -- NO, he let them leave. Jesus then turned to Peter and made sure Peter was still with him and wasn't going to run.
If you take the bible literally.. then John 6 makes it quite clear that the Eucharist is integral to salvation.
More biblical support HERE: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html
Personally, If you have questions about the Catholic faith. Orthodoxy of otherwise, I'd ask them on a Catholic forum, where you'll get more in depth answers.
http://forums.catholic.com
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One word of caution ---
It is all well and good to seek truth and find answers. Just be careful that you don't emphasize too much the "find a church that I believe is correct" emphasis on the "I"
Sometimes I see people get self righteous and try to find a perfect church which conforms to THEIR interpretation of scripture, as if THEY are the infallible authority which has a perfect understanding and so the right church conforms to THEM, not the other way around.
I'm not saying you are like this.. but just don't get too cocky
Christ created the Church first to help guide us. He didn't create us first and then the church to conform to us.
I?m an Orthodox student of theology, so maybe I can address some of your questions.
They?re big questions, though ??so I hope you?ll forgive me for pointing to an article and to other Answers of mine, rather than creating a mega-posting:
1) Prayer for the dead: The best brief explanation of this issue I know of is Part I of Dr. David Ford?s article ?Prayer and the Departed Saints?: [ http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=70&Itemi d=131 ].
2) Prayer to the saints: [ http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AumtJ2PYAjdILXjOsnJMbyvty6IX;_ylv=3?qid =20091007042804AAvtWHu&show=7#profile-y8xUh0rsaa ].
4) Regarding the Eucharist, please see the section beginning with ?The word ?Eucharist? literally means ?thanksgiving?? in this Answer: [ http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AgW8_EfUUR70wkMxXVDbnSHty6IX;_ylv=3?qid =20090912210801AAxPqWE&show=7#profile-y8xUh0rsaa ]. The rest of the text might also be interesting to you.
Finally, just for the sake of clarity: One poster here seems to be under the impression that the Orthodox Church is the same thing as Roman Catholicism. This is certainly not the case.
1) Prayer for the dead: First, let me address your statement that "it serves no purpose." What purpose does prayer for anything else serve? God knows what you want, and only gives it to you if He wants to. But we should pray for the dead because they, in turn, pray for us. (Protestants accept that saints pray for us in heaven). This is also in the Bible in 2 Maccabees, which was removed from the Protestant Bible on the basis that Martin Luther disagreed with the book, and he justified it by noting that contemporary Jews did not use it. Also note that the Lutherans of the 16Th century did not condemn praying for the dead (see the Book of Concord).
2) Prayer to saints: We can pray straight to God, and most of the time we do. Praying to the saints is like asking a friend or relative to pray for you. The saints have no magical powers or anything, but their prayers are considered to be powerful because they have perfected their prayers to God and have earned God's favor. Again, Protestants do not deny that saints pray for us here on earth -- the difference is that the Orthodox believe saints, through the Holy Spirit, can hear prayers directed to them. And again, it is no more "worship" than you do when you ask a friend or relative to pray for you -- in this case you're actually praying to your friend/relative even though he/she is right in front of you. (Prayer just means "request"). This is also in 2 Maccabees, but also very strong in tradition. Throughout all recorded history of Christianity, Christians have prayed to saints. The sect of Judaism that Christianity broke off from, Pharisaic Judaism, also prayed to saints. You find evidence of this throughout the New Testament, but they can obviously be easily dismissed. For example, when Jesus was on the cross and calling out to the Father, the people around him thought he was praying to Elijah.
3) Icons: This was hard for me too, at first. The Orthodox Church emphasizes bodily prayer -- prayer using all 5 senses. This means visually, too, and it's for that reason that icons have such an important place in the Orthodox Church. Catholics and Protestants also have icons. The difference in practice is essentially that the Orthodox cross themselves in front of icons (because they remind us that Jesus/the saint depicted is present as we pray), and we kiss them (as you would kiss the picture of a loved one, especially in Eastern cultures, which Orthodoxy comes from).
4) Eucharist: Yes, the Eucharist literally becomes the body and blood of Christ. But Biblically, the defense for this is stronger than the defense for the Protestant idea that the bread and wine only symbolically represent Christ. I'm sure you would agree, though I entirely understand the defense that it is symbolic. But the idea that it is symbolic is very new, and even many Protestants and Anglicans believe the Eucharist literally becomes the body and blood of Christ. Since I believed this as a Protestant, I never had trouble believing this -- you would probably have to specify your problems with this idea for me to answer adequately.
I hope this helps. Also, like I said, I had some trouble accepting some of these things too. I'd suggest continue attending Orthodox services for a while before deciding whether you agree or disagree. Why? I found myself able to understand some of these things only by being around them. You first have to get used to the idea, and realize there must be something to it if so many people have remained part of such a large denomination that has barely changed in any of its practices in over 1600 years. Then, as you begin to understand, you can decide whether you agree or disagree.
If you have any questions in the future, feel free to send me a message and I'll do my best to help.
Question about the Eastern Orthodox Church?
