Hinduism...Why does Krishna contradict himself in these two verses of Bhagavad Gita?
In Bhagavad Gita 4.13 and 9.32 Krishna contradicts himself while talking about the caste system. In 4.13 he says that he created the ChaitanyanAYantenetstem) based on Guna and Karma and not based on birth. In 9.32 he contradicts that and says that Vaishyas, Shudras and women are of lower birth. I am quoting the verses here for your reference. Kindly tell me what he actually means? Was he was confused while preaching the Gita to Arjuna? Why would he contradict himself, if he was so sure about the system created by himself. Your inputs on this are welcome. Non-Hindus kindly refrain from answering this question.
'According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.'
Bhagavad Gita 9.32
'm?m? hi p?rtha vyap??ritya, ye 'pi syuh? p?pa-yonayah?, striyo vai?y?s tath? ??dr?s, te 'pi y?nti par?m? gatim'
'O son of Pr?th?, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth ? women, vai?yas and ??dras, can attain the supreme destination.'
@City of Zion. 1. Papa-yonayah means sinful or lower births, what is sinful or lower about Vaishyas, Shudras and Women? 2. If Krishna meant that then he would have said that rather than saying 'papa-yonayah'. 3. In that case what he means by lower birth and why he specially mentions Vaishyas, Shudras and women, what about Brahmins & Kshatriyas? 4. Lol, i dont think striyo means prostitute in sanskrit. Anyways thanks for the response.
I can give my own guess in this,I'm not well versed but 4.13 is very clear where Krishna says that the four vans are based on ones characteristics, attitude and Karma
In 9.32, there is a lot of debate on this -
There are three points of view to rebuttal this -
1.He doesn't say lower birth but papa yon is which relates to karma and has nothing to do with lower birth as understood by most.
One may see that the woman ?body? has to undergo more physical suffering in a lifetime than that of a male ?body?, would one not ask why is it so?
Similarly, people with modes of ignorance likes Sudra or Vichy's undergoes more suffering because they ha vent awakened yet
Once an individual if fully enlightened, then the body does not matter, this mantra talks about the people who are yet to reach the destination
2.Another way of looking at it would be
Lower birth should not be taken in a literal sense - it refers to lower in terms or spiritual awakening.
3.Some people argue this way - the English translation is not correct
it does not say "lower birth for example women,Vichy's and Sudra's" or "lower birth, i.e women,Vasily's and shudras".It plainly refers to "lower birth, women, vaishyas and shudras"
4.There is also another way of looking, women doesnt actually refer to the women that we know, it would have meant prostitutes
I dont know what it would have meant exactly but just giving you four different ways of looking at it
Edit : 1.Its not sinful but they suffer more emotionally.2.It could very well be that at that context or at that stage of the chapter, he dint require to mention that way.3.He could have very well meant people who are criminals in the ancient society.I think he talks about them(Brahmins and Vaishyas) in the next verse.4.I'm not even versed in Sanskrit as much are you are,so I dont know but that's what people say as a rebuttal.
If you like to have a better explanation,do visit
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5491
I have been following this discussion at this forum, this is a huge debate here, people have got so many views on this and I could not come up with a proper understanding..lol
Just as in the army there are lower and higher positions.
There are "ma ha-rathas" and "At-rathas". The At-ratha can handle more warriors at the same time than the ma ha-ratha. Therefore, from military perspective, it is said that the position of the At-ratha is better or higher than the ma ha rat ha. It says something about his military qualifications, not about his qualities as a human.
Similarly, from the bodily point of view, the bodily qualities (including mind and intellect) of the Brahman are higher or better developed than the bodily qualities of the Sudra. This does not mean that the soul residing in a Brahman body is better or more favored by Krsna, than the soul residing in the body of a sudra.
"Higher birth"; born in a more refined and higher developed body (connected to sattva). A "lower birth"; born in a body which is less refined or less subtle (connected to tamas and/or rajas). It's a matter of speaking to make clear distinction.
Bhagavad Gita is Advice given to Arjuna by Lord Himself. So the Advice is given at time of Gurushetra. So he has given at time of War to encourage Arjuna.
We are Humans not the Lord Himself.
So never point out or think wrong about his words.
Birth that represents Varna/Guna or Gender, is due to ones past karma . Brahmins (supposed to be completely staving, though not recently!) Kshatriya(saliva+rajas/power), Vaishya(raj as+tamas), Sudra's(tamas). So, these people should focus on their selves to maintain or evolve without accruing present karma! Second verse classifies this birth due to karma/non-staving (papa-yonih).
Women of all varnas, cannot chant vedas nor do prescribed duties of Brahmin men like learning/teaching vedas, doing Gayathri Japam (which requires one wearing sacred-thread bare chested and with clear etiquette and perform sandhya all three times a day) , doing agni-hotram etc. So, does Sudras and Women are not qualified , due to their emotional and physical restrictions of birth/Nature, which is what Krishna refers to pApa-yOnih. This is prescribed in the Vedas and Gita/Krishna cannot refute Vedas. Vaishyas are also included, may be because they are interested in information(vishaya, thus vaishya), cannot focus on philosopical debates/inquiry, thus of rajas+tamas nature.
Thus, these three category of people are more suitable for Karma Yoga. Brahmin men and saintly kings/ksathriyas can focus on gnana yoga(+karma). Kshatriya being upholders of Dharma, are qualified for sAttvika nature/tenets. But Bhakti should be the easy and final resort for all humans, irrespective of one's nature. Brahmins/saintly kings(Janaka, Rama, Viswamitra etc.) were in Krishna's mind in verse 9:33. But Even if those of higher births cannot develop devotion to the Lord, their Jnana and Eligibility (due to their nature) will become meaningless too.
But all irrespective of Varna or Gender, those completely surrender and get involved in the spiritual and devotional kainkaryam(Service) to the Lord (within the tenets of dharma) are eligible for Moksham/Liberation. Refer the next verses 9:33/34
Contradictions are in our minds. Because we think that we can understand these things by our intellect.
And if you are asking us to solve the 'contradiction' aren't you depending on our intellect? That is why the need of a Guru. And Guru means one who is face to face with God (I call Him Krishn), and not these school teachers or Sitar players.
In 4.13 Krishna states that the divisions are according to ones Gina and karma and that is not contradicted in 9.32. Krishna doesn't say that these divisions are not according to Gina and karma.
In 9.32, the same thing is understood, that according to ones karma in the past life one gets the body in one of these divisions. So there is no contradiction in these statements. One has to take the broader picture in to account that the Gina and karma stated in 4.13, makes one get a suitable body and finds oneself in one of those divisions.
Had Krishna stated that one change ones status in any of the four divisions as mentioned in 4.13, that would have been a definite contradiction. He does not state that. Rather, he states the opposite that those who are born in lower birth (due to ones own Gina and karma in past life), women, vistas and Sudra's can ATTAIN SUPREME DESTINATION. He doesn't say that they will remain in the low position for ever eternally.
Here is the PURPORT to 9.32
It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower and higher classes of people. In the material conception of life there are such divisions, but for a person engaged in transcendental devotional service to the Lord there are not. Everyone is eligible for the supreme destination. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.4.18) it is stated that even the lowest, who are called candalas (dog-eaters), can be purified by association with a pure devotee. Therefore devotional service and the guidance of a pure devotee are so strong that there is no discrimination between the lower and higher classes of men; anyone can take to it. The most simple man taking shelter of the pure devotee can be purified by proper guidance. According to the different modes of material nature, men are classified in the mode of goodness (brahmanas), the mode of passion (kshatriyas, or administrators), the mixed modes of passion and ignorance (vaisyas, or merchants), and the mode of ignorance (sudras, or workers). Those lower than them are called candalas, and they are born in sinful families. Generally, the association of those born in sinful families is not accepted by the higher classes. But the process of devotional service is so strong that the pure devotee of the Supreme Lord can enable people of all the lower classes to attain the highest perfection of life. This is possible only when one takes shelter of Krishna. As indicated here by the word vyapasritya, one has to take shelter completely of Krishna. Then one can become much greater than great jnanis and yogis.
http://vedabase.net/bg/9/32//en1
The translation you quoted is from Gita - As it is by Prabhupada and as usual there is a mistake in the translation. 'Papa-Yonayah' does not mean 'lower births', it means 'sinful wombs'. That combination with stripy is a derogatory word used to describe prostitutes or women with sinful wombs. So the line reads 'ye 'pi Stu p?pa-yon ayah stripy, vistas tat ha Sudra's ' meaning 'though they be women with sinful wombs, vistas and shudras'.
There is no contradiction between the verse 4.13 and 9.32. Such confusion arises when there is a wrong translation. All those who have read the Prabhupada version would have thought for a moment, but then continued since they are not supposed to question the Guru in that cult, even if he has blundered. Prabhupada generalises women, vaishyas and shudras as lower births. That i think is a big mistake to commit for someone of that stature. I wonder how the bald Iskcon robots are mechanically chanting this version without getting the text corrected. Such mistakes cause great shame to scriptures of knowledge and philosophy and to Hindu religion since these cults quote books of Hinduism for survival.
Hinduism...Why does Krishna contradict himself in these two verses of Bhagavad Gita?
nut : Thanks for the correction
