Messianic Jews, serious question, do you study the Talmud?
Messianic Jews do you study the Talmud?
Most followers of Jesus worship according to the canon of the Council of Nicaea including their edited version of the Torah (OT), but your denomination claims to follow the Kosher laws that were set down for the Hebrews (not for the Gentiles) and that predates the Council and their vote.
I was wondering if you also follow the REST of the Laws of the Hebrews or if, like most Christians, you ignore the Talmud (Oral Torah) and instead follow the Laws set up the (Catholic) Council.
In other words, do you study the Torah, the Oral Torah, and the New Testament; all THREE?
Please, let them answer.
I know how most people feel about followers of Jesus claiming to be Jews, but I want to learn more about their sect.
I am not Christian nor, Jewish, nor Muslim. I am a theist who does not worship the god of Abraham.
The Oral Torah was already in writing by the time the First Council Nicaea met, but they refused to include it any of its teachings in their canon.
Martin Luther actually included many of the teachings from the Talmud in his Bible as the "Middle Testament" and the Protestant Apocrypha, but modern Bibles have abridge it out.
Yes, I know that Messianic Jews are not actually Jewish. I am just trying to understand how they justify following Hebrew laws when they are Gentiles.
The "Devinne" nature of Jesus and the Trinity were all part of the canon of the (Catholic) Council, so I am trying to understand how they rectify the two opposing ideas.
The Talmud is not God's Word. It is the work of man, and is totally false.
The catholics didn't give anyone God's Word. Catholicism is totally false, and Catholicism leads to eternal hell due to its false gospel of works (Galatians 1:6-9).
God's Word is eternal. Jesus is the Word of God.
Martin Luther is not any kind of an authority for me.
My wife is Messianic Jewish, and she doesn't keep any law. We're all to be under grace.
Let me be really clear: ?Messianic Jews?, ?Jews for Jesus?, etc., are **not** Jewish. Period. They are Christians, many of whom, under false pretenses, aggressively seek to convert Jews and descendants of intermarriage to Christianity in a way that many of us find invasive, disrespectful, and anti-Semitic.
Before I even get to what Jewish law says about these impostors, consider this: not only does every Jewish organization completely reject them as Jewish, but so do a fair number of Christian groups (see links 2-4 below).
If no Jew thinks that you?re Jewish, and even some Christians don?t, then how can you possibly think that you are? And if one thinks that this rejection is a recent phenomenon, think again! Even St. Ignatius, of the 2ND century, felt the same way! In his Epistle to the Magnesians he wrote:
?Never allow yourselves to be led astray by false teachings and antiquated and useless fables. Nothing of any use can be got from them. If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace?To profess Jesus Christ while continuing to follow Jewish customs ***is an absurdity***?[L]ET us learn to live like Christians. To profess any other name but that is to be lost to God?For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.?
And now for what **we** say:
Most Jewish scholars agree that you cannot convert away from Judaism (there are a minority who say you can convert away). However, this by no means implies that a Jew who joins another religion has the same standing as a Jew who has remained Jewish. A Jew who practices another religion, whether it be Christianity (in any of its forms, including Messianic "Judaism"), Islam or anything else, is known as an "apostate." An apostate is someone who has removed themselves from the Jewish people by joining another faith. The apostate cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery. Nor can the apostate be counted for a Minoan, the minimum of ten adult Jews (or adult Jewish men, depending on ones denomination) needed for saying certain prayers. For nearly all practical purposes, they have the same status in the Jewish community as non-Jews. The only difference is that they do not have to undergo a full conversion to rejoin the Jewish community, though there is a process known as "Teshuvah" that they must go through to come back to the Jewish community with full Jewish status.
So, once we delve into Jewish law we see that a Jew who joins another religion, though still Jewish, has ostensibly the status of a non-Jew and is no longer able to participate as a full member of the Jewish community. The apostate has the weakest of all grasps to their Jewish identity, they are Jewish by birth but otherwise have no position in the Jewish community.
This then brings us to a discussion on the difference between "doing Jewish" and "being Jewish." By "doing Jewish", I am referring to someone who is actually practicing Jewish beliefs and laws. By "being Jewish", I mean someone who has been born Jewish. Now, there are many people who are born Jewish but are not practicing Judaism. For instance, if a Jewish person murders a family, the Jewish person may be "born Jewish" but certainly was not "doing Jewish" as murder is a violation of the Ten Commandments.
Similarly, we can see examples of this in the Jewish Bible. The prime example of this would be the Jews who worshiped the Golden Calf at Mount Sinai. These individuals were unquestionably Jewish by their birth, thus we can argue that they were "being Jewish." However, were they "doing Jewish?" The Bible is quite clear that these individuals, though born Jewish, were not practicing Judaism. The worship of the Golden Calf, though it was a monotheistic form of worship, was clearly a violation of the Biblical law regarding the making of idols. Thus, they were not "doing Jewish." Similarly, in the Prophets we see countless reprimands of people who were undeniably Jewish by birth, but had entered into apostasy by worship ping gods such as Baal and Ashtoret. They were not "doing Jewish" but "doing pagan" and had violated the very underpinning of Judaism. That they were "being Jewish" by their birth was clearly not sufficient. One must also "do Jewish" in their actions.
Along the same lines, many of Jesus' original followers were unquestionably born Jewish. However, by adopting non-Jewish beliefs, such as thinking that Jesus was a god (a violation of several places in the Jewish Bible, Numbers 23:19 and Hoshea 11:9 provide a few examples of this), were no longer "doing Jewish." The same is true for individuals in the Messianic movement today. The Messianic movement was created by Christianity, and its beliefs and values reflect Christianity. By practicing Messianic "Judaism", the individual who was "born Jewish" is no longer "doing Jewish." They have removed themselves from the Jewish community by their practice and beliefs. Unfortunately, too few of these individuals have an understanding of the difference between "being Jewish" and "doing Jewish", mistakenly believing that they can both believe in Jesus and still have the same status in Jewish community as before. They not only have lost status, but also have lost the practice of Judaism. As has been pointed out in the Talmud, the emphasis for us is on the action, the "doing Jewish.
This is taken from the reference section of the first link:
1."There is virtual unanimity across all denominations (of Judaism) that Jews for Jesus are not Jewish." (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, pp. 139-140).
2."For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness. Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews". (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, p. 9).
3.Jewish groups:
o"To make the record clear, Jews for Jesus is a Christian missionary organization ? period." (last link).
o"Messianic Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, often refer to their faith as fulfilled Judaism, in that they believe Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Although Messianic Judaism claims to be Jewish, and many adherents observe Jewish holidays, most Jews regard Messianic Judaism as deceptive at best, fraudulent at worst. They charge that Messianic Judaism is actually Christianity presenting itself as Judaism." (Balmer, Randall. Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, Baylor University Press, Nov 2004, p. 448).
1) please understand that these people are not a sect of Judaism, but a christian denomination.
2) good luck finding an answer, if they thought about their beliefs enough to have a clue what you are talking about, they would not call themselves such.
I'm not a Messianic Jew, but I am very capable of answering this question.
Just as there are different "flavors" of traditional Jews, there are different "flavors" of Messianic Jews. Technically speaking then, there is no *one* denomination called "Messianic Jews." All they have in common is their Jewish heritage.
Some believe in absolute Torah-observance, even down to the dietary and clothing requirements; others are very liberal and show very little of their Jewish roots within their personal beliefs and practices; but the majority of Messianic Jews fall in between these two positions.
For all of their differences, there is one thing they all seem to agree on: the "oral tradition" is not to be followed, since the various traditions cannot be documented to have come from Moses OR from God. This makes perfect sense when you keep in mind that Jesus taught AGAINST following the commandments of men which nullify God's law.
EDIT: Please keep your question open for a few days; I've emailed your question to a few of my Messianic contacts.
I, too, am not Jewish, but I have studied a great deal the teaching of Joseph Shulam of Kehilat Roeh Israel Synagogue in Jerusalem. I can tell you that he not only studies the Talmud, but he refers to it not infrequently his his scholarly works like, "Romans, a Commentary on the Jewish Roots of Romans."
The link below is to the Messianic Midrasha from Netivyah, the on line organ headed by Joseph Shulam.
Edit: You added that Messianic Jews are not Jewish. Joseph Shulam was born to Jewish parents in Bulgaria in 1946. His parents immigrated to Israel in 1948, which has been his country since he was two years old. If he believed that Menachem Mendel Schneerson was Messiah (Chabad), rather than Yeshua, no one would question his status as a Jew. What hypocrisy.
Definition of ?Jew?: Person born to Jewish mother
Person who converts to Judaism
Judaism has defined ?Jew? thus for over 5000 yrs
Definition of Messianic: Christian Evangelical Cult
Founded by Christian missionaries
Funded by Evangelical Churches
Messianic ?Jew?: Christian Evangelical who claims Jews were ?wrong? not to worship Jesus as messiah. Messianics take Jewish customs and rituals and Christianise them. Messianic spend billions trying to convert Jews to their Cult.
************************************************** *******
(see also **Messianic ?MUSLIMS?**: Christian evangelicals who claim to be the ?real Muslims? and who try and convert Muslims to their cult
http://www.mtw.org/home/site/templates/mtw_invision.asp?_resolutionfile=templatespath|mtw _invision.asp&area_2=public/Resources/Invision/2006/08/InsiderMovements)
There is *no* debate over the fact that Messianic = Christian missionaries.
The founder of the largest Messianic group admits it:
In a document ?What Evangelical Christians should know about Messianic ?Jews? , Martin Meyer reveals:
?We consider ourselves an arm of the local **Church**. We are Evangelists. We are accountable to the Church. As we win and ***convert*** Jewish people, we urge them to take their place in a local Evangelical **Church**, or establish a congregation. Our duty is to aid the **Church** at large and to gather in the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.?
Messianics have taken core Jewish festivals, customs, symbols and scriptures and have Christianised them, thus stripping them of their true and authentic meaning. These include:
JEWISH Passover: commemorates exodus of Egypt of the Israelites
Messianic ?passover?: revolves around Jesus as the ?sacrificial lamb?.
JEWISH Rabbi: spiritual ad visor and Scholar who has spent years in a Yeshiva, before receiving ?smirch? (ordination). Knows the Torah, Tanakh and Talmud thoroughly.
Messianic ?rabbi?: Christian Evangelical Pastor; not ordained, not Jewish, not versed in Torah, Tanakh or Talmud.
Messianic beliefs = Christian beliefs:
- god is part of Trinity
- Jesus had virgin birth
- Jesus was divine saviour
- resurrection
- original sin
- Jesus died for the sins of all mankind
- non Christians/Messianics will go to Hell, if they don?t ?find jesus?
WHAT JEWS BELIEVE
- G-d is ONE
- no such thing as ?virgin birth?
- Jewish Maschiach has not arrived yet
- All humans born PURE and innocent (no such thing as ?original sin?)
- NO MAN can die for others? sins
- no such thing as ?hell?
- righteous of all nations will have ?a share in the world to come?
- all humans are *equally* G-d?s children
Messianic holy scripture: the CHRISTIAN New Testament
JEWISH holy scripture: the TORAH
Messianics are *not* JEWS. They are CHRISTIANS.
No Christian Evangelical movement has the right to try and Redefine Jewish identity, Jewish customs, Jewish beliefs and Jewish scriptures.
Real Jews Don?t Worship Jesus.
edit
This really is beyond belief.
There is NO such thing as a 'messianic midrash'.
So far, Messianics have taken and twisted the meaning of our:
Torah
Mezuzah
Pesach
Yom Kippur
Rosh Hashanah
Maschiach
And now they are trying to Christianise our TALMUD?
Dear G-d, do these people have NO shame?
old "jewish" woman is a *Christian*.
She's about as 'jewish' as a PORK CHOP.
I will put my 2 cents in the bucket but won't answer any other questions regarding what others think about what they should ad hear to because to me it's clear what should be adhered too.
It's simple really, when Yeshua said: do what the teachers {who were in his time "the phrases and seduces"} tell you to do but don't do what they do because they say but do not do, what do [you] understand about it?
{I read Talmud, cabala, as I am more than 40 years of age since this is a rabbinical advice, mudroom, Tanya, I put on T'fillin and wear tastiest, I mean do I have to express everything I believe and follow? I don't think there's room enough for that.
We who are Jews do not in no way change the habit of following what our rabbi's teach "if however it conflicts or denotes or contradicts with Yeshua's teaching" for there is nothing added or taken away from the Torah on his behalf, so on this note: if he is in sequence with the Torah there is no fault in him his life his teaching or his acknowledgement of G-d, so..... there is your answer as precisely as I see it.
But to be more specific yes a jew cannot change from being a jew, and what the Torah regard one as a jew is one that follows in the footsteps of Avraham our father.
By the way I am jewish and know the aposition of those who do not agree for a jew believing in Yeshua as moshiach but my answer is specific to the contex to which I addressed.
Your understanding of Yeshua hamoshiach is limited due to the reason of your aposition.
As you stated: You do not worship the G-d of Abraham, so why the inquiry about the question you have posted, it makes no sense for you to inquire about something that is irrelevent to you, it's FOOLISHNESS!
In the following verse it says God gave the Old Testament to the Jews and that bible did not contain the Apochrpha !!!
In the New Testament Book of Romans chapter 3
1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar.
Your question, as worded, is unacceptable and debasing to Jews. If you are going to name those Christians who falsely call themselves Jews, please put it in quotation marks ("messianic Jews") to signify they are misnamed. Thank you.
Note to those reading the answer below: Old Jewish Women don't believe in Jesus any more than young Jewish women, old Jewish men, young Jewish men, or Jewish boys or girls do. No Jew on earth believes in Jesus, whether they be Reform or Orthodox or any other type of Jew. Don't be fooled by the nonsense in the answer below.
Oh, so Devoted1 claims to be a "completed Jew" who used to be a Jew, thus leaving all the real Jews somehow incomplete. What a wonderful way to insult and disrespect ones own heritage! JEWS ARE ALREADY "COMPLETE" without having to adopt the god of another, different religion!
I was going to give a answer, however there is NO question here, of course they do! They are Jewish, but more slanderous lies, and ranting, and misinformation made by pa gens and reform Jews will be post here to drowned out truth! So I will address that. First you don't know what or who Jewish believers of Yeshua believe cause all they talk about is the christian group Jews for Jesus. You have the right to your opinion however that is all it is is your opinion! You do not speak for all Jewish people, as it has been proved... Now there is even a Sephardic Messianic Jewish Community formed by Sephardic Rabbi Haim Levi!! And there is Reform Rabbi Dan Cohn-Sherbok, a Professor of Jewish Theology at the University of Wales, Rabbi Lampeter disagrees with all your statements, even to the point of saying that real Messianic Jews are not Jewish, then you have from the 1800s to mid 1900s mainly people like Rabbi Sabbati Rohold, an Orthodox Jew born in Israel, Rabbi Mark Levy, an English Jew, Rabbi Jon Zacker, a Russian Jew, Rabbi Beni Abraham are the well known names that carried the Jewish movement called the "Followers of the Way" now the Messianic Torah Observant Jews and they are not part of christianity what so ever, they are the modern day Followers of the Way that even was comprised of Torah Observant Jews, who were the disciples of Yeshua, Kefa, Matit'yah, Yochanan who started the movement that was a sect of Judaism, and even the Talmud confims this, and then you now have the 2nd Jerusalem Council the same as the 1st Jerusalem Council lead by the Jew Ya'akov is being form as we speak in Israel in Jerusalem! You have been proved wrong time and time again, The Messianic Torah Observant Jews do not engage in converting anyone, as it serves no purpose because you can not convert that which is already chosen by G-d, they do not claim Yeshua to be G-d for as their Yeshua said there is but one G-d! Also they can trace their roots back to the "Followers of the Way" and the "Notzrim" that were in fact part of Judaism in every way and counted in the minyan according to Jewish Law!! Deal with it the Talmud, Jewish History and Roman history proves it! There was no Baptist following Yeshua, jews for jesus are not Jewish at all! but those making posts and answers seem like they are giving facts about those Jews who are born Jewish and choose to accept Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah, though I do not agree with them, I don't see any of them up in arms over the Chabad Messianics, yet they are still considered Jewish when they are not if the Messianic Jew is not also! Thats like saying a Reform and a Reform convert are Jewish according to the Orthodox community and they wont even count your convert members as Jewish even in Israel, yet they will claim to speak for all jews thats funny cause the Orthodox have no real respect for the reform movement even today, Because it was not to long ago that the Reform Movement rejected ritual and ceremonial Jewish laws, such as kashrut, which reformers questioned as unnecessary or outdated for a religion based on reason, The traditional Hebrew prayer book (the Siddur) was replaced, Patrilineal descent is accepted by Reform when all other Jewish Movements disagree! Reform Synagogues began to be called Temples, a term reserved in Judaism for the one Temple in Jerusalem! Reform Jews argued that the Mishna and Talmud often contradicts the literal meaning of the Torah, and that these Rabbinic texts also contained outdated ritual practices and values that were contrary to Enlightenment ideals of reason. So you want us to consider YOUR facts about Judaism as facts at the very least one could say reform Judaism is close to the line of being heretics!! I mean look at what Orthodox Jews have often argued on behalf of Jewish traditions making claims, that Reformers are creating a meaningless Jewish identity that encouraged assimilation and fail to nurture the Jewish spirit. They accused Reformers of dishonoring Torah, and even G-d in their pursuit of the modern. Now that being said I would say one can not define all Reform Judaism as the same just because one group says one thing and another says something else, which is what YOU do to Messianic Jews so therefore if you dont want everyone to do that to you, then don't do it to them otherwise we must conclude that Reform Jews are in HERETICS! and at the least do don't follow the Torah! Anyway the point is there do exist Rabbi's who acknowledge Messianics as Jews and even a very well respected Reform Rabbi in UK at the Univ even says that Torah Messianics are a branch of Judaism as they do NOT claim that the Jew called Yeshua to be a deity, their roots and History proves it, their roots are from the followers of Yeshua, who were members of the Way movement as sect of Judaism
Yes they do, I have a few Messianic Jews who were born Jewish and they are more Jewish, actually they are very Orthodox. They differ from christianity greatly!
Marcus Old Jewish Woman gave us facts! You and your cohorts gave us lies again hummmmmmmmmmm
one of the Four Evangelists, the authors of the canonical Christian Gospels in the New Testament;
a leader (creative person)
a Christian who explains his or her beliefs to a non-Christian and thereby participates in Evangelism;
Evangelist (Latter Day Saints), an office in the ministry of certain denominations in the Latter Day Saint movement;
Presiding Patriarch, a leadership office in certain Latter Day Saint denominations that may also be referred to as the Presiding Evangelist;
Quorum of Seventy Evangelists, a leadership body in The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite);
a person who enthusiastically promotes or supports something.
NOTICE LAST LINE< ANY ONE who PROMOTES OR SUPPORTS SOMETHING IS ONE>
Messianic Believers study Torah & The Re-Newed Covenant in Messiah Y'shua mainly.
There is much value in reading the Talmud( Oral Law) as it helps one
to understand the Hebrew way of thinking, but should not be taken in
place of The Torah.
The RCC teachings also should not be taken in place of The Torah.
Jews & Gentiles are Complete in Messiah Y'shua, One New Man!
I think you are just trying to stir the pot & cause mischief!
I study SOME of the Talmud, but I do admit, not much. Most of my study is in the Torah and Haf-Torah, which I deeply love.
And those who say we Messianics "are not actually Jewish," yourself included, merely show your ignorance, dear one. My parents were Jews and I am a Jew. I simply happen to be a completed Jew. I am not a "Jews for Jesus" person, and agree they are definitely Christians on a mission to convert Jews out of Judaism and into Christianity. Messianics do not want to do that because we are quite happy to remain Jews.
I am a Messianic Jewish believer in Y'shua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah). That being said, before I answer your question concerning if many MJ's, including myself have read the Talmud, I must say that I take great offense at your saying that we Jews who believe that Y'shua(Jesus) is the Messiah that the Tanach speaks of are now 'Gentiles'. 'A Jew is a Jew is a Jew' as the old saying goes. Whether if that Jew decides to be an Atheist, an Orthodox Jew, a Lubavitcher who proclaims Schneerson is the Messiah, a Buddist, Muslim or yes even a Messianic they are still Jewish. The Jews of Exodus were still Jews while they worshiped the Golden Calf. The Jews of Elijah's day were still Jews when they cut themselves and sacrificed to Baal. The Jews of Judah Maccabee's day were still Jews when they were compelled to eat pork and make offerings to Jupiter. Yes they were all Jews, but they all were in need of Repentance and Renewal. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. As I have said many times, when people have pelted me and my family with pennies, shouted racist remarks at me calling a dirty k***, and burned a cross in my yard they didn't see me as a Gentile because of my belief in Y'shua, no rather they saw me as a Jew.
Now as for your question concerning the Talmud. Yes I have read it. The Talmud is basically mans interpatation of the Torah. I use the Talmud as a great source of wisdom & information, BUT I take what it says with a grain of salt. I do not believe that it contains information concerning the Salvation of my soul. I use the Talmud for good moral teaching and I use it as extra-biblical historical proof of Y'shua ha Mashiach. The Talmud biasedly mentions Y'shua calling him 'Yeshu' an acroymn meaning 'may his name and rememberance be blotted out'.
As for what you have stated concerning the 'rest of the Law', I follow the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) that are stated in the Torah. The Torah is THE Law. I follow Biblical Kosher as opposed to Talmudic Kosher, in otherwords I will eat a cheese burger and a beef pepperoni and cheese pizza.
Messianic Jews, serious question, do you study the Talmud?
