LDS / Mormon : Do you believe Joseph Smith had a "celestial affair" with Fanny Alger?
I mean by "celestial affair" more like the polygamous duty of Joseph Smith and it is noted that there was a sexual, spiritual, and marital relationship between then before Emma Smith kicked Fanny out of their household.
So I am asking do you believe there was any marital affairs between Fanny and Joseph? Do you not care if the was or wasn't? Or do you believe it is all made up by anti-Mormons? and why?
Joshsy: If I was claiming to be a prophet of god and teaching morals based on abstinence before marriage and the sacredness of marriage, and Prue-marital relationships. I would be more than happy to open my history to you. Since I am just a man, it is absolutely none of your business.
So if you ad mint Joseph Smith was just a man.. I'll agree with you. It is absolutely none of my business and I am wrong to bring it up. But if you still believe Joseph was a prophet of God and taught those things then I believe it is my right as a person to wonder why Joseph's relationships with the opposite sex should be scrutinized.
Don't care. Does not effect the teachings of Christ one bit. Does not effect my beliefs or my relationship with God one bit. I am not willing to try and second guess God's intents and purposes - even with polygamy. However, I believe that most of the evidence seems to indicate that Fanny and Joseph were regarded as married.
I think the lack of reliable historical detail leaves a lot of room for critics to claim that Joseph Smith had an affair with Fanny and then later came up with plural marriage to justify his actions. But not knowing the details of what the relationship consisted of, leaves us to assume ( and we all know that old saying) that Joseph acted either honorably (believers) or dishonorably (non).
There is historical evidence that JS knew by 1831 that plural marriage would be restored, so it is arguable that this relationship fits into this. Also, Mosiah Hancock (LDS) reported a wedding ceremony; and (apostates) Ann Young and her father Chauncery both referred to Fanny's relationship as a "sealing." Ann also reported that Fanny's family was proud of the relationship, which makes no sense if it was an affair. To me it appears evident that those closest to them saw the marriage as exactly that?a marriage.
Not something I worry about. Joseph saw God the Father and Jesus Christ just like he said. The priesthood was restored through Joseph Smith. Jesus Christ is the Messiah, just like Joseph and countless other prophets have taught. How much of the Fanny Alger story is truth vs. rumor, I don't know.
It doesn't pertain to my salvation and I don't lose any sleep over the issue. What does matter is that Jesus is the Christ, the Promised Messiah, the Son of God and that He is our Savior and our Redeemer. Also, the true Church of Jesus Christ was restored (as promised) in it's fullness and that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration.
Shouldn't you prove yourself without sin before casting a stone at someone else long gone and unable to defend such allegations?
Phrog's answer is excellent as well as all the others, we simply don't judge and don't care.
I'll stand before God one day accountable for all of my sins, I don't want to add to my list false accusations against a prophet of God.
EDIT: being a prophet of God doesn't make a man perfect nor is there a Prue-qualification of perfection.
In either case I think your response to me was an answer enough; you see if you asked me that my response would have been a simple "no" with no ruffled feathers.
Assuming that you have at one time had extra-marital sex, you would be making an accusation that you have no right to make.
Polygamy seems far less dirty than an outright affair or extra-marital sex - at least there are promises and commitment involved. So I question the integrity of someone who can ask question like this who seems to fall under the same category of sin and probably doesn't get outraged at men like Hugh Heffner who the nation seems to celebrate as some type of geriatric hero for his open perversion while casting accusations against Joseph Smith for his actions which may or may not have been sectioned by God.
Joseph and God will work that out, personally I believe him and even if I didn't I'd give hum the benefit of the doubt.
I am curious however, you say that if I admit that Smith wasn't a prophet you would agree with me that your question is out of line - yet clearly you think he was just a man - so why is this question not hypocritical?
If we quote non LDS sources, Mormons discount it. If we quote reputable Mormons, they cover their eyes and ears.
Oliver Cowdery was an initial founder of the LDS church, one of the primary three witnesses to the gold plates, and generally is held in high regard by Mormons. They quote him freely when it fits their purpose.
He referred to Alger/Smith as ?A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...?
Chauncey Webb is another famous early Mormon and held in high esteem. Usually.
Joseph kept his marriage to Fanny out of the view of the public, and his wife Emma.
Chauncey Webb recounts Emma?s later discovery of the relationship: ?Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house?.
So... what you're asking is if we think Joseph cheated on his wife?
No.
And, a person can be just a man AND a prophet. It's possible.
Did he do anything contrary to the gospel? I highly highly doubt it. Was he a perfect man? No. Does this have any bearing on whether or not the gospel is true? No. IF the Spirit has confirmed he is a prophet, which to me the Spirit has, then nothing anyone else on earth says really matters. Joseph will stand judged for anything he did during his life, as will I and all of us will. I don't worry about it because I know the gospel to be true.
Personally, the whole story could be 99% true and 1% lie... so it's never really 100% true. That's how the anti-Mormon propaganda works. They'll sell you some truth, or a little, or even a lot, but not the whole 100%. So is it really accurate or reliable? I say no.
I believe people love to gossip about a prophet of God, particularly those who are less than pristine in their own thoughts and actions. Rumors of illicit affairs don't establish truth; they only establish the existence of jealousy and hate.
I believe the written testimony's of what happened. Not the sugarcoated versions the LDS church teaches. I promise they are.
MANY of Smith's wives, and peers, wrote about the happenings of the time. ARE ALL these people anti Mormon? ALL those LDs leaders of the time? Anti?
Mormonism CLEARLY shoot itself in the foot. This is real history.
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm
From site..
Joseph kept his marriage to Fanny out of the view of the public, (and a few others) and his wife Emma. Chauncey Webb recounts Emma?s later discovery of the relationship: ?Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house?.
*Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage. He referred to it as ?A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...?
"By his fruits."
Proof of the LDS leadership's denials?
SEE..
History of the Church, vol. 5, pg. 30 (May 1836)
"Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man, should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in case of death,, when either is at liberty to marry again."
Messenger and Advocate (May 1837) Warren Cowdery editor, pg. 511
"1st. That we will have no fellowship whatever with any Elder belonging to the quorums of the Seventies who is guilty of polygamy or any offense of the kind, and who does not in all things conform to the laws of the church contained in the Bible and in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants."
AND..
History of the Church, vol. 2, pg. 247 (August 1835)
See..HTTP://www.mormonismi.info/jamesdavid/denpract.htm
Joseph Smith practiced polygamy prior to the "OK" to practice polygamy, from God. AND many LDS leaders practiced it after the manifesto from Woodruff.
EDIT:
LDS state, CTR (choose the right) and "By their fruit's they shall be known" all the time.....
Come on now, but you do not care about a persons JUDGEMENT? ok......
Can you please give the source for this smear on Joseph Smith.
Fanny Algar is just rumor without any evidences whatsoever.
Edit: Ann Webb Young and her father Chauncy Webb wrote their book 40 years later after the so called affair of Joseph Smith and Fanny and didn't join the church until the 1840s 10 years after the fanny so called affair.
Read Hugh Nibley's How to write an anti-Mormon book he blasts Ann Webb Young's book and account to sh reads.
Also found in Hugh Nibley's book vol 11 I think Brass sounds and something.
To be honest w/you - I have never heard the name. Additionally at this point in HISTORY it seems a rather moot point and one that ALL of us are speculating, guessing, throwing around opinions etc that NO ONE can prove either way, right? It's arguable either way you take it and since I can't know for sure I just would rather leave that to the Lord to know the truth of and move on with my life and my faith as it stands...
Not meant as a cop out - I just tire of the ceaseless prattle of anti, hateful, negative crap that is thrown all around the place. It is just unchristian like and accomplishes nothing in my opinion.....
I'm not a Mormon, but having researched Mormonism(Both LDS as well as Fundamentalists, Community of Christ,etc), only Christian writers still claim Joseph Smith had a sexual relationship with Fanny Alger.
Secular writers only say he believed in Polygamy, but never practiced it. Because there is no evidence he was with any woman other than his wife.
In January 1838, Oliver Cowdery (Smith's cousin and Book of Mormon witness) wrote his brother Warren that he and Joseph Smith had "had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself." (ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cowdery). Alger was the teenage servant living with the Smiths earlier in the decade.
"Fanny was living in the Smith home, perhaps helping Emma with house work and the children. Ann Eliza Webb recalls, ?Mrs. Smith had an adopted daughter, a very pretty, pleasing young girl, about seventeen years old. She was extremely fond of her; no mother could be more devoted, and their affection for each other was a constant object of remark, so absorbing and genuine did it seem?.
Joseph kept his marriage to Fanny out of the view of the public, and his wife Emma. Chauncey Webb recounts Emma?s later discovery of the relationship: "Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house?.
Ann Eliza again recalls: ?...it was felt that [Emma] certainly must have had some very good reason for her action. By degrees it became whispered about that Joseph?s love for his adopted daughter was by no means a paternal affection, and his wife, discovering the fact, at once took measures to place the girl beyond his reach...Since Emma refused decidedly to allow her to remain in her house...my mother offered to take her until she could be sent to her relatives...?
To calm rumors regarding Smith's involvement with plural marriage, the church quickly adopted a ?Chapter of Rules for Marriage among the Saints?, which declared, ?Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with...polygamy; we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife...? This ?Article on Marriage? was canonized and published in the Doctrine & Covenants."
(ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm)
Fanny stayed with relatives in nearby Mayfield until about the time Joseph fled Kirtland for Missouri. Benjamin Johnson remembers: ?Soon after the Prophet[?s] flight in the winter of ?37...The Alger Family left for the west and Stop[peed] in Indiana for a time...Soon [Fanny] Married to one of the Citizens of thee & alt ho she never left the State She did not turn from the Church nor from her friendship for the Prophet while She lived..? Benjamin continued, ?And I Can now See that as at Nauvoo ? So at Kirtland That the Suspicion or Knowledge of the Prophets Plural Relations was one of the Causes of Apostacy & disruption at Kirtland alt ho at the time there was little said publickly upon the Subject.? Fanny lived the rest of her life in Indiana with her children and [non-Mormon] husband, Solomon Custer.
LDS / Mormon : Do you believe Joseph Smith had a "celestial affair" with Fanny Alger?
