Mormons, is there physical evidence of the existence of Book of Mormon characters and
My institute class is about Book of Mormon. I've been in the church for 4 years (my anniversary was a few days ago... PARTY!) anyways, this isn't the first institute class I take about the BoM but I have a really good teacher and he really makes us think. But lately, I've been feeling like my testimony on the book is shaking a little. I think it's written with good intentions and has amazing messages. I've been reading it since I found the church and at first I used to think it was so true but now, in all honestly and with zero intentions to offend, I feel like it's a bit shallow, wonder about its veracity and feel like I don't need it as much as I need the Bible (testimony on the Bible is untouched). BUT I've always felt like it's still a bit foreign to me because it's not something I grew up knowing about. I was raised Catholic and to me, the only God book was the Bible.
I've never been Ms. Molly Mormon but I honestly love the church, usually have no problem living by the standards in my daily life and I'm afraid to death to lose my testimony in it. I feel like the church is what holds me together and like a home. Spiritually, I went through a lot before finding the church and I don't wanna go back to that. I was too confused and felt worthless. What I love the most about the church is the strong family values and I want all that. Sometimes it saddens me that besides my mom, my family is not LDS so we can't be sealed and I worry that I will not be with them again, but in the other side, somehow I feel like something tells me that there will be a way. I don't see why, if someone is a good person, they wouldn't enjoy of the benefits of eternal life regardless of their religious affiliation.
Though I think that somehow I would be troubled in any religious denomination I get myself into. I tend to have my own beliefs on some stuff a denomination may or may not agree with but I understand that I can't expect every single thing in life to satisfy my needs, and religion is one of them.
And here you got my tangled spiritual life. I don't want to feel like that anymore.
Maybe you see me here in R&S often and clowning around but I'm serious this time. I was thinking that maybe if I saw some archaeological findings, physical evidence, I would feel better about the BoM again.
Darlin, that is the hand of god touching your heart, telling you to change your path. There is only 1 true god and that is our heavenly father. Get in touch with your local christian preacher
8 witnesses testified of seeing the brass plates. and there are 11 witnesses that testified of the truthfulness of the BoM.
however, i understand the "plates" were taken into heaven.
quote: " Be it known unto all nations, kind reds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That __Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. __ And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it. "
Suppose that you call your past, experience? Some things we learn by experience, the sin lies in repetition not commission. You are smart, you can be what you want to be. There is no evidence for any religious dogma, why would a god make such rigid rules, such Draconian banishment's. This is all dogma meant to control, not enlighten. Have you investigated Bahi you might find it suitable. Finish your degree and go back packing in Australia so many European girls do, and its safe. Talk to Eartha she is smart, and Nikon who is also very thoughtful and smart. ((P))
Where you live, it is safe to say, there are many scientists who are Mormon. Go to a College. And ask around. If there is someone that knows archeology, a professor at a College who is LDS, then seek him out, and tell him, that you are interested in evidence.
Nothing wrong with looking for evidence that The Book Of Mormon, The Second Witness of Jesus Christ, is true.
I love gathering evidence. The more evidence the better. The evidence is always increasing, and it is being arch rived. This has been taking place over many years.
A good idea is to make a folder, and to organize the evidence, as you become aware of it. As time goes by your folder will get bigger and chock full of amazing and delightful evidence that The Book Of Mormon, The Second Witness Of Jesus Christ, is true.
Someday you may want to even go down to Central America and visit sites that are presently being excavated, and by going to other ancient sites of interest, including those in Mexico, and Peru, where there are many pyramids and amazing buildings, and so forth.
Look for evidence that confirms that The Book Of Mormon, The Second Witness Of Jesus Christ is true. Don't spend your time looking for flimsy Worm-Tongue arguments against the Church NOT being true.
Focus especially on gathering all the evidence that is evidence for The Book Of Mormon being true, rather than focusing on arguments against The Book Of Mormon.
All and all the best evidence is the evidence of the heart.
So I would recommend this. When you go into a subject, really get into it. Know everything about it.
A lot of people don't understand the nature of specialized knowledge. For example most people think one archaeologist is the same as any other. Nothing could be further from the Truth. And archaeologist excavating in Israel, have a whole set of different circumstances and history to deal with, than a person who is excavating in Central America, for example.
So therefor if you really concentrate on something and go in depth studying it, then you will know details that most others don't know.
But I warn do not be seduced by flimsy argumentation's. That is why it is important to go in depth with anything that you study regarding proofs.
You might want to get a book that I really like. It is The Joseph Smith's Inspired Translation Of The Bible. Steven J. Hite & Julie M. Hite compiled The New Testament book, and also an Old Testament book.
Steven J. Hite is a Professor at BYU. He did a really good job of putting the Four Gospels in the New Testament in columns so that you can compare each event, and how it is recorded, and that is really neat.
So this version of the New Testament, that is The Joseph Smith's Inspired Translation Of The Bible, is a really really good book. I highly recommend it. I really love how it is arraigned. So easy to understand, and so easy to read!
It costs about twenty dollars at Deseret book, but it is well worth it. What a treasure this rendition of the New Testament is.
Have you ever heard the made up word acronym, egg bock?
It means, Everything Will Be O.K.
So egg bock!
Postnote: These are just suggestions, and if you don't feel good about it, then don't do anything I suggested. What I wrote, are just some ideas. The important thing is the spirit of God. That is the spirit of happiness. That is all that matters. (Don't let me mess you up, accidentally.)
PostPostnote:
http://www.fairlds.org/
You may not know about this website. I kind of assumed you knew about this website dedicated to various kinds of LDS proofs. But just in case you don't know about this website, I included the link above.
Why ask just Mormons Princess?
Don't you think they're gonna be a bit biased?
And no, there is no physical evidence at all
for Lehi or Nephi or Omni or Mosiah
or any other characters that are intrinsic
to the Book of Mormon.
There is also no evidence for a transatlantic voyage
of Israelites in the sixth century B.C.E.
Or for the wars claimed to have been fought by Lehi?s descendants.
In fact, the only characters and events that we DO have evidence for
are the ones Joseph Smith took from the Bible,
which can't be taken as an accurate history book by any means.
But then, I'm probably the wrong person to answer your question.
I don't want to ruin it for you if it makes you happy..
Characters matching the script of the Book of Mormon have been found on clay seals and on Stella in Mexico. You can see photographs in The Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni by Ainsworth.
Extensive maps also show how Mexican geography matches Book of Mormon geography. The Aztec tongue, which is still spoken, shares some words with Hebrew, according to the work of a recent researcher. DNA evidence has been found that links the Cherokee Indians to Israelites. A Decalogue (ten commandments) was found written in a pro to-Hebraic language in a desert in New Mexico. Photos are on the web. Monuments and artwork have been found throughout Mesoamerica that seem to be based on the Egyptian and Babylonian cubits.
None of that can fill the spiritual hole that has opened up inside you. You received the Gift of the Holy Ghost at baptism. It is real. Take advantage of the gift. Seek it earnestly until it is a part of you, and never let it go. It will be well worth the effort.
I once got into a fight at school. When I got home, I felt damaged, spiritually. I also felt justified, because the other guy had started it. I prayed about it and opened the Book of Mormon. It fell open to a page that talked about contention, and how contention was not of God. I closed the book and opened it again. It fell open to a different page on the same subject. Satan causes men to contend one with another. I got the message and repented. The next day I apologized for my behavior. I got the spirit of the Holy Ghost back.
The Book of Mormon is so compact that many things go unnoticed. One day I stumbled upon this little gem:
"But now, behold, they are led about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind, or as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves, without sail or anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her; and even as she is, so are they."
(Mormon 5:18)
As a sailing buff, I found this scripture strange. Who sails with an anchor? Anchors are used when someone stops sailing, IE. resting in a harbor. I did some research and discovered that anchors were once used for sailing. Mulitple large rocks or tied stones would be lowered into the water around the boat. This had two effects; 1st it steadied the boat against the actions of the wind and waves. 2ND, it allowed the boat to take advantage of the currents, which moved in steady predictable patterns. I learned something new, but I was not surprised. The Book of Mormon is very reliable, and gives much more detail than people give it credit.
You need to learn how to pin down Mormon answers! Ask if there is any NON-Mormon related archaeological evidence that has ever been found. (Hey, this stuff makes LDS members happy! And their tithe dollars need to show something besides empty temples!) They have NO sources for their "evidence" other than their own well-paid scientists, who make more money and garner more prestige for "finding" something that sounds plausible than one who actually tells the truth. The latter types get fired, eventually, and possibly excommunicated from their church. Why? Because you can't be a Mormon scientist and not be... LDS! They won't allow it. (And neither will thinking scientists, for that matter.)
So, let's play a favorite Mormon missionary game! Assuming to ask the "heart of the question that should have been asked", instead of the one that IS asked. They do it. What's good for the goose is just as good for the gander:
Consider those LDS scientist's position in their field of expertise from the world's view. MORMON evidence for a dubious religious book. If they claim that they deliberately "find" evidence, or somehow connect vague pieces of tall tales and make them their own, do they get to keep their jobs? If they don't, do they get to keep their jobs? If they lose those jobs because they just can't seem to manufacture evidence out of thin air, or don't have the imagination powers necessary to support shaky theories, or just can't seem to find it in themselves to lie, what college or archaeological project is going to hire fired "LDS" scientists? They have no credibility outside the LDS. whatsoever. If any LDS says they do... Prove it.
Think about it. A scam is a scam is a scam. Start to finish.
So, to answer your question as an ex-mormon, no. Flat out. Why? "the church is what holds me together and like a home". Where is God in your life? Is He second to your "church" family? Is your heart HIS home, or is your fav church just some convenient feel-good place to hide out from making conscious choices that you may have to.... gasp.... own up to before God some day? I'm totally serious, too. Let them spoon-feed you and go back to sleep, or allow God to feed you truth and LIVE your LIFE. Your decision. NOBODY else's. Because your decision comes down to either exist, or LIVE.
Sadly I think you need to leave the Mormon Church if you are looking for evidence. I met with the missionaries for some time, and they kept trying to get me away from evidence. When I look at the Bible I can go to museums and see the evidence that it is a historical record. I have friends who have been to many of the places mentioned in the Bible. How many museums have Book of Mormon evidence? How many people do you know who have been to Zarahemla?
I'm sorry, but the Book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith in the 1800's - it is not from 600BC onwards.
Try an Alpha Course - you may find more answers on that.
No one can give you a testimony. That is something you must seek out on your own.
You believe the Bible to be true because you grew up with it, but do you have a testimony of it? No one has found the graves of Adam and Eve. There is no evidence that a large Israelite slave population left Egypt. Even some things in the Bible have been pr oven false with archeology, yet people still believe. Not because of physical evidence, but because of faith. Why would faith in the Book of Mormon be any different?
Think back on the times you had a testimony of the BoM. What got you there? Was it prayer, study? Try doing those same things and see what happens.
The witnesses of those who saw the golden plates is enough physical evidence for me.
I've read the Book of Mormon cover to cover a few times and study it regularly. I have felt the Spirit testify and confirm the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
This article may be helpful:
http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=741f6a4430c0 c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7 db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Since you a looking for more, a book that you might like is "Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon" by Joseph L. Allen. There are some interesting comparisons between the Book of Mormon and some of the monuments and other archaeological finds throughout central America.
One that is really interesting to me is something called the Tree-of Life Stone, or labeled Stella 5 of Izapa. Some LDS researchers have suggested that it appears to be a rendition of Lehi's dream of the tree of life. Other archaeologists of course disagree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izapa_Stela_5
A testimony of the gospel and of the Book of Mormon, Bible and other scriptures are ultimately a testimony of faith and faith is something that needs to be nurtured through humility, scripture study and prayer as well as living the gospel properly. Otherwise the influence of the Holy Ghost is weakened.
The Book of Mormon tells of a world with horses, chariots, wheat, steel, money, writing. It describes a world full of things that Smith would have known.
As we've learned more and more about Prue Colombian America, what has turned up has been startlingly different. None of those things existed, and their lives centered around other things that were never mentioned by Smith. He had no way to know.
Outside the LDS church, there isn't a single scientist or scholar who takes it seriously. It has the same 'junk science' status as Bigfoot. Even LDS scientists don't publish anything about it. They know they'd be shredded by their colleagues.
And if you think that is dismaying, don't even look into the story of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price.
I guess I'm confused to by your assertion that the church is family friendly when it treats your family so badly. It puts itself before family in every way.
hey princess.
evidence - yeah.
proof - nope.....you have to make that decision to believe on your own....that is the gist of 'testimony'. and the base of free agency. God doesn't care what color your six are today although that too is a choice.....what He cares about is what we decide to believe in. what we accept of Him.
you are going to have to ask yourself......"what archaeological evidence might be considered the minimal irrefutable proof needed to convince me of the authenticity of the BoM?" and then (just me) you may want to ask yourself.....what has changed in my life that I now need to prove these things to myself, and is that a good thing? what actions have I taken? for me, I am an old "show me" kind of person. I am not good @the accept this on faith thing. I wish I was. I am jealous of those who are.
some might think finding the existence of horses or chariots would constitute proof for the BoM...... but such would merely demonstrate that these things existed - they hardly amount to "proof" and accepting them as evidence is determined by the mindset you already have.....
for example - BoM mentions barley which was thought not to exist in the ancient Americas. now - Prue-columbian new world barley has been verified......and by those who do not want to believe the BoM dismissed as a "lucky guess".
BoM mentions cities, trade, warfare, towers, and the use of armor--all of which did exist in the ancient Americas--yet their existence has not convinced ANYONE that the BoM is an authentic ancient text.
the fact is that evidence -which does exist- does not constitute proof, nor translate into belief. THAT you gain from God through study, and prayer, and research, and more prayer, and.....you get the idea.
for readings on the evidence available you can look on Fields.org, jeff lindsay, jerry ainsworth, nahom, bountiful......but in the end you make the decision as to whether this evidence is persuasive or not yourself.....and IMHO, you will have already made that decision before you review the evidence.
good luck princess. I hope you can hold your ground as it sounds like you have gained a lot in the past few....I'm here if you need to talk.
A spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness will beat any physical evidence, always. Nevertheless, by comparing the answer "history...." gives you with evidences easily found on the Internet, you will see such folks who claim there is no physical evidence for the Book of Mormon are just willing to lead you astray without knowing the facts. Some of my favorite Book of Mormon evidences (and yes, the testimonies of the Three and Eight Witnesses who saw and even handled the gold plates also constitutes awesome physical evidence):
http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/index.html (top row of four "photo evidence," etc.)
http://www.nephiproject.com/ (Stuff for sale, but you can see some of their evidences here)
http://www.cumorah.org/libros/ingles/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon_-_Milton_R_Hunter.html (A whole book of evidences; wish they would include the pictures from this out-of -print book here, but this is great information. Many other such books have been written.)
This is cool. Note the National Geographic article talks about prehistoric Americas horses being "smaller" at about 4 1/2 feet high, then check the size of the apparent horse in the ancient American stone carving in the site after that:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/05/0511_ancienthorses.html
http://www.cumoraharchive.com/Discussion/photos/chichen_itza/picture48.aspx
So lots of physical evidence supportive of the Book of Mormon, although not "proof" which a non-member would likely accept, yet anyone who receives the witness of the Holy Ghost that the book is true will thereafter find the physical evidence is enough supportive "proof" to suit them.
This is as close to proving the Book of Mormon to be true as anything I have seen outside the testimony I have received of the Spirit, an internal evidence of the book itself which is very convincing:
http://lds.org/new-era/1972/02/chiasmus-in-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng
Hope these things are of help to you. The whole Church is true, so stay faithful, and the Lord will continue to strengthen your testimony more and more.
Maybe there is -- but we might not have uncovered it yet, or have recognized it yet even if it has been uncovered. God's purpose is for us to grow spiritually, and that involves faith. The idea is that sooner or later our faith will be vindicated by the burning witness of truth from the Holy Ghost.
Many people receive that witness every year and join our church. If the Holy Ghost has borne witness to you that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Jesus' own church, then you know that The Book of Mormon is a valid book of scripture.
Mormons claim that the Book of Mormon is the most accurate, complete account of the people, culture, and events of ancient America. IF that were true, then scholars who study ancient American archeology, anthropology, culture, linguistics, etc. would use it in their research. They would find it useful and use it regardless of their personal religious beliefs.
However, no artifact to support any person, place, thing or event unique to the Book of Mormon has ever been found.
?Let me now state categoricallyLyhat as far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the foregoing to be true, ...nothing, absolutely nothing, has ever shown up in any New World excavation which would suggest to a dispassionate observer that the Book of Mormon...is a historical document relating to the history of early migrants to our hemisphere.? (Michael Coe, Yale University, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1973, pp. 42, 46)
Here's what the Smithsonian Institution says about it:
"The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book."
( http://www.godandscience.org/cults/smith? )
And the National Geographic Society:
"Archaeologists and other scholars have long probed the hemisphere's past and the society does not know of anything found so far that has substantiated the Book of Mormon."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology?
Joseph Smith was a con man. People paid him money to find treasures. His excuse for not finding treasure was it was guarded by spirits. He was arrested as a "juggler," or "con man." He was brought before a justice of the peace. The judge ascertained that there was enough evidence to try him. This was in Bainbridge, N.Y., in 1826, The judge was Albert Neely. Smith was labeled a "glass looker". The evidence against Smith was sufficient that, if Smith had not left town, he would have been judged guilty. Smith then went on and fabricated the Book of Mormon. He got his idea for the book from Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews, or "The Tribes of Israel in America".He supposedly used a pair of spectacles to "translate" the plates for the Book of Mormon, friends and relatives said he used the same stone he used in his former money digging scheme.The gold plates never existed according to a witness. An early Mormon convert heard Harris say "I never saw the plates."
Details can be found in "Joseph Smith and the Origins of the Book of Mormon", by David Persuitte.
There has not been found one piece of archaeological evidence to support the story of ancient America found in the Book of Mormon. In the 1950s, the LDS church financed "the largest archaeological project ever funded by a religious institution" It was successful in that it uncovered an enormous amount of archaeological information about ancient America, but as far as providing any evidence for the Book of Mormon, it was a failure. That has not been changed by any subsequent archaeological findings.
In his book, Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church, Simon G. Southerton shows that the American natives show no evidence of Israelite descent, which contradicts what the Book of Mormon says.
Joseph Smith had an eye for women, so he instituted plural marriage and took over 50 wives, some of them the wives of other men.
Mormon doctrine:
God was once a man He has a body of flesh and bone and lives on a planet near the star Kolob. The sun gets its light from the Kolob. God has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her. We can become like God and rule over our own universe. There are many gods. In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom men have more than one wife. A righteous Mormon will see the face of God in the Mormon temple. If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood.
. Jesus was married. Jesus and Satan are brothers, They are our brothers. We are spirit children of Heavenly Father. Jesus was conceived by God by having sex with Mary. We should not pray to Jesus. The "Lord" in the Old Testament is Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father". Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow.
Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "Prue-existence", in which we were tested. Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin or our ancestors sin. If righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned. Not only will humans be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals.
All humans before the Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah to the eastern hemisphere. Mormons should avoid traveling on water, Satan rules the waters. You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand.
American Indians are "descendants of Lehi", but there is not a hint of the Hebrew language in any of the Indian dialects. The Garden of Eden was in Missouri.The Book of Mormon says that Lehi found horses in America. Horses did not exist in the Americas until the 16Th century. The Book of Mormon says that Nephi had a bow of steel. Jews did not have steel in this time period and iron was not smelted in the Americas until Spaniard arrived. The book of Mormon mentions "swords and cimeters." Scimitars were not around until the rise of Islam (500A.D.) The Book of Mormon mentions silk. This did not exist in the Americas at this time.
In D&C 130:3 it says, "The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false."
There are many active LDS that have seen through the propaganda and have chosen to still believe nonetheless. Go to Staylds.org You'll find stories of lots of people who've questioned the church and chosen to remain regardless.
If the church lifestyle and culture are working for you, then you don't have to leave.
I'm going to honest here and write what I thought as I read your dilemma.
I noticed that you wanted "proof or evidence" to sustain your faith. You've got the principal backwards. The pattern which you are describing is called sign seeking. The Pharisees and Sauducees demanded this "proof" from Christ as well. (Matt 16:4, Matt 12:39, Luke 11:29, & Mark 8:12)
Faith comes first, and then the spirit testifies. Have you heard the phrase, faith proceeds the miracle? This is the same order Jesus was teaching to those who demanded a sign before they fully converted to the Savior.
You mentioned that you feel like the Book of Mormon is shallow...this is very odd to me. Have you sincerely put for the effort to ask God if it is true? I'm not talking about searching for physical evidence, I'm talking about reading, praying and fasting. That is how spiritual truth is gained. Spiritual truth isn't debated over, nor is it discovered in a archaeological dig. Faith is confirmed by God and witnessed by the Holy Ghost. This is how it has always been. This is the patten taught in the scriptures.
Perhaps you need to be reminded of something Alma said a long time ago to those who were stagnant or "Luke" warm. Reread Alma 5. It seems like we are subject to experiencing a mighty change of heart at our first conversion, but that isn't the end of the process. That change of heart continues within us as we grow in understanding and faith in the Lord. This change of heart...is confirmation from the Lord that we are on the right path.
And finally, to be honest...looking for justification or verification of faith through the Internet may begin with sincere intent, but recognizing that truth belongs to God is perhaps more important. Don't be subject to everyone Else's interpretations. Go to God in faith, knock and he will answer.
Some 12 people saw, lifted, and physically observed the plates that the Book of Mormon came from. They have testified to the world of these events. I trust their statements.
You can read them here:
http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/introduction?lang=eng
Mormons, is there physical evidence of the existence of Book of Mormon characters and
