Is Protestantism's most dangerous idea that Christians must be encouraged to think fo
constantly reforming?
The number of denominations within Protestantism is often ridiculed, yet won't freedom of thought and worship produce that?
Rigidly structured worship and seeing the Bible through the grid of a Confession / Creed / dogma surely will prevent reform?
As Protestantism fails to give a rigorous criteria that identifies one church as true, another as false, it "unleashes this wealth of different models of church. And inevitably they are going to be in competition" to quote Dr Alister McGrath in an interview about his book, "Christianity's Dangerous Idea: The Protestant Revolution".
That interview is on pages 6 & 7 on http://www.freechurch.org/magazines/monthlyrecord.htm
Is this idea dangerously bad or powerfully good?
Requested edit for Jeffrey - Clarify 'think for themselves...' In the context of the interview, Dr McGrath (who is professor of Historical Theology at Oxford) had been asked the question, 'Perhaps Protestantism's most dangerous idea is to encourage people to think for themselves?' The interviewer had commented that structured worship could 'do people's thinking for them'. McGrath agreed, saying Christians needed to enter into the biblical text fully; that a skilled preacher and teacher will open things up, enabling the worship per to interact with the text in a way that personalizes it, whilst at the same time bringing out the things that are common to all.
The idea is to think deeply about God's word, the Bible, and to study it personally as well as to teach it soundly in the congregation. Protestantism encourages this. Denominations that end up dictating to their members what they must believe and do have lost the spirit of Protestantism.
IMO, Protestantism's most dangerous idea is that of an invisible church filled with people who self-interpret everything while (usually) ignoring context and historical interpretations. It is a cafeteria version of Christianity - don't like what this preacher says, just go down the road to another person who teaches something different.
The word Protestant means to protest the Catholic Church....The only one who dared protest the Catholic Church was Martin Luther. He brought people to the truth in God's word. Protestanism is a "moot" word referring to Christian Churches.
I think that in Protestantism, what is the focus is Christ. Catholicism isn't at all. It's on Roman Catholicism. I can tell because they only complain about Protestants and promote Roman Catholicism - and never really talk here about Jesus.
So even worse than Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, they promote their church, not Jesus Christ.
?Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and an manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom. . . . Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism. . . . She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets? (E16, 142-148). There are many more sayings in the same sense, though not always so dirtily phrased. ?Usury, drunkenness, adultery?these crimes are self-evident and the world knows that they are sinful; but that bride of the Devil, `Reason', stalks abroad, the fair courtesan, and wishes to be considered wise, and thinks that whatever she says comes from the Holy Ghost. She is the most dangerous harlot the Devil has.? ?Reason is contrary to faith?, he writes elsewhere. ?Reason is the whore of the Devil. It can only blaspheme and dishonor everything God has said or done? (E29, 241) So it goes on and on.
The fruits of Sola Scriptura...
"But when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will teach you all the truth. For He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He will hear he will speak, and the things that are to come He will declare to you." John 16:13
Most non-Catholic sects declare that the Holy Spirit is 'teaching' them the truth. However, there can be only one truth. Since the advent of Sola Scriptura and individual interpretation of Scripture, how can the Holy Spirit be in each of the thousands of sects, teaching all of them opposing viewpoints? It is to be noted that all of the following denominations teach from the same Bible, so why the differences in teaching?
1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?
2. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tell the Baptists it is umbilical?
3. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Seventh Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tell the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?
4. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tell the Baptists she had other children?
5. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, 'once saved always saved', and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is scriptural?
6. How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?
7. How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD?
I could go on and on with the differences between non-Catholic sects, but I think you get the point. It takes only a minimum of common sense to realize that the Holy Spirit could not be speaking to each and everyone of those thousands of non-Catholic sects in the opposing ways of which I have sampled here. However, I was recently reminded that common sense is not so common anymore. It is easy to see that the 'fruits of Sola Scriptura' are not from GOD. There is no 'one fold and one shepherd' in Protestantism. Opposing teachings in these denominations is rampant, all caused by the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura and its accompanying 'individual interpretation' of Holy Scripture. Which, if any, of these sects is being taught all of the truth, as promised by Jesus Christ in John 16:13?
"And we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom GOD has given to all who obey Him." Acts 5:32
Okay, GOD Himself has thrown down the gauntlet...TO ALL WHO OBEY HIM.
So who obeys the will of GOD? Is it the Lutherans who say the Holy Eucharist is the 'True Presence' of Jesus Christ incarnate, or is it the Baptists who say, 'It is only a symbol'?
Is it those who say we have to worship on Saturday or is it those who say worship on Sunday?
Is it those who say baptize infants or those who say not to?
The Protestant Religion came from Catholics who were not happy with Catholicism. The History of the Catholic Church shows some reasons why, or ask Galileo.
I've no doubt that you consider non-catholics threatening. How comforting it must be to be able to say that it's true because the magisterial says it's true.
According to the Book of Acts, Chapter 17 verse 11, Paul of Tarsus and Silas preached at Berea, and the inhabitants "eagerly examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so", and many of them believed.
I'll give you a little challenge. Please give me the scriptures backing up the dogma of the assumption of Mary, so that I can know what they are. I don't believe that you can. As a catholic, your answer will be it's true because the magisterial says it's true.
Rightly so... it is dangerous! All Christians ought to report to a central authority... it will make life more bearable to atheists who need to constantly guess what the heck this particular Christian is pushing... LDS, JWs, Fundies... they all go to their respective Heavens when they die and they want to take you there!!! Just like any commercial they will assure you that there is no other Heaven, but mine!
I think that catholics or any other arm of the body of Christ that try to get people to come to there side because everyone Else is wrong is the MOST DANGER to the word of our Lord !
Can the head say it is better than the foot we should be trying to bring people to the LORD not fighting among ourselves.
If you have to put someone down to show you are the best then YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
I don't wish to ridicule Protestants in the least but the idea of "make it up as you go along, please yourself and criticize anything Catholic" just isn't for me.
Of course freedom of thought is to encouraged, but all too often there is only point scoring going on.
We can agree to disagree and respect that the other person has a valid view point.
"The significance of the Protestant distinction between -justification- and -regeneration- is that a FUNDAMENTAL DISCONTINUITY has been introduced into the western theological tradition WHERE NONE HAD EXISTED BEFORE [emphasis by McGrath]."
"However, it will be clear that the medieval period was astonishingly faithful to the teaching of Augustine on the question of the nature of justification, where the Reformers departed from it."
"The essential feature of the Reformation doctrines of justification is that a deliberate and systematic distinction is made between JUSTIFICATION and REGENERATION.
Although it must be emphasis ed that this distinction is purely notional, in that it is impossible to separate the two within the context of the -or do salutes- [the order of salvation], the essential point is that a notional distinction is made where none had been acknowledged before in the history of Christian doctrine."
"A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition where none had ever existed or ever been contemplated before. The Reformation understanding of the nature of justification -- as opposed to its mode -- must therefore be regarded as a genuine theological ovum."
- Alister McGrath - Iustitia Dei
scroll down to
Dumb and Dumber: The Professional Anti-Catholic and his Sycophants
http://art-of-attack.blogspot.com/
Martin Luther wrote the veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart
September 1522.
One of the oldest catacombs contains a drawing of the Madonna and child dating back to the second century
And the oldest know request to Mary. The Sub Tunm Paresidum dates back to at least 300 AD, It reads
We fly to your patronage oh Holy Theotokosz despise not our petition in our necessities but deliver us always from all dangers o ever glorious and blessed Virgin 300 AD
Sola Scriptura Vreses Mary
Isaha 7:14 Therfore the Lord Himself will give you a sign. The Virgin will be with child and give birth to a son. We can see its exactly the same sign as in Revalation 12, confirming that the woman in both occurrences is Mary
Rev 12: 1-5: A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven; A women clothed with the Sun with the Moon under her feet and a crown of twelve Stars on her head..
Holy Mother of God Pray For Us
She was pregnate and creid out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in Heaven ; An enormace Red Dragon revalation 12.
The Dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born Rev 12
Mother of our Saviour Pray for Us
Mother Of Christ Pray for us
She gave birth to a male child who will rule all the nations
Withy an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and to his Throne Rev 12 :17
Mother Of Divine Grace Pray for us
Then the Dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war aginst the rest of her offspring - those who obey the God?s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Mother of our Creator Pray for Us
Isah 7:14 Therfore the lord himself will give you a sign. The woman will be with child and give birth to a son we can see its exactly the same sign as in Revalation 12, confirming in both instances the woman was Mary.
Mary Queen of Heaven Pray for us
Does the bible endorse the immaculate conception .
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, Born of a women born under the Law
Gal 4:4 ?Born under the Law?Jhn 2:4 , 19:26 Jesus calls Mary women as she is called in Gen 3:15
Those who believe in Sola Scriptura IGNORE both these verses.
Gen 3:15 we see from the very beging that God gives Mary a unigue role in salvation history. God says I will enmity between you and the woman between your seed and her seed..
Gen 3:15 / Rev 12:1 Begin and end with the woman battling Satan
?It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Marys soul was effected without original sin; So that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with Gods Gifts ?
Martin Luther
Receiving A PURE SOUL buy God; Thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.
MARTIN LUTHER. Sermon 1527
Ark Of the covenant pray for us??
Advocate of Grace pray for us
Handmaid of the Lord Pray for us
Woman clothed with the sun pray fro us
Queen assumed into Heaven Pray for us
One of the oldest catacombs contains a drawing of the Madonna and child dating back to the second century
And the oldest know request to Mary. The Sub Tunm Paresidum dates back to at least 300 AD, It reads
We fly to your patronage oh Holy Theotokosz despise not our petition in our necessities but deliver us always from all dangers o ever glorious and blessed Virgin 300 AD
Martin Luther
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
John Calvin
Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ's 'brothers' are sometimes mentioned.
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.
Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
Huldreich Zwingli
He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained 'inviolata' before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - 'Hail Mary' . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .
'Fidei expositio,' the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on 'Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.'
I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.
Heinrich Bullinger
Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary's perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: 'In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.' She is 'the most unique and the noblest member' of the Christian community . . .
'The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.'
John Wesley (Founder of Methodism)
I believe... he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as she
brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.
"I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus."
1Timothy 2:1-5
Jesus is the one Mediator of our salvation, our only Saviour. But He is not our only intercessor, as the whole passage above clearly indicates. So the one passage that fundamentalists have used to deny intercessionary prayer, when read in context, actually backs up intercessionary prayer.
James 5: 16-18 " ...The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."
So we see that intercession strengthens prayer. And the more righteous and faithful the intercessor is, the more powerful the prayer.
BUT THAT IS PRAYER ON EARTH. I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT PEOPLE IN HEAVEN CAN NEITHER SEE US OR PRAY FOR US.
That is a recent, man-made doctrine, with no authority behind it.
Hebrews 12.1 speaks of "a great cloud of witnesses" who surround us, and who consist of the faithful holy ones of God. Many examples of these witnesses are given in the preceding Chapter 11 of Hebrews.
Later in the Bible we see this vision of heaven:
Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: ...and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Seeking Mary's intercession probably dates back to the earliest Christians. One of the oldest Christian prayers recorded in writing, the Sub Tuum, from the 200s AD, is a prayer to Mary:
We fly to your patronage, O holy Mother of God.
Despise not our petitions in our necessities,
But deliver us from all dangers,
O ever-glorious and Blessed Virgin!
BUT I DON'T NEED MARY WHEN I CAN GO DIRECTLY TO GOD.
Why not say "I don't need the rest of my family as long as I have my fat
The most dangerous thing period, is man's religion....Although the bible is not complete and has been revised and rewritten and so much excluded from the original writings....remember it was translated and revised and so forth by the hand of man...The one thing they forgot to do was exclude the fact that there is no mention of any religion; IE..... baptist,catholic,protestant,Jehovah's witness,Mormon( which by the way is new) The point is this,that God's love is what counts, and that the way we care about one and another as human beings is what is going to make the world go around...........
The entire history of the RCC institution is reason enough for believers everywhere to renounce it and "come out from among her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you share of her plagues." (Rev. 18:5). Martin Luther was absolutely correct in form and content when he posted the 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenburg.
It is a flame which has not yet died out, and probably won't until its purpose has been fulfilled.
Besides all of this, Greg is absolutely correct in his analysis as well.
Clarify a point please; 'think for themselves'; Which, as in do not go by other people's 'think Si's, or to go by 'Christ's say Si's in this life on earth?
There are many potential avenues to this concept 'think for themselves'. Without 'thinking for oneself'; ones beliefs and actions become limited to the speaker's communicated knowledge. One may also be limited to accept 'wrong things' the speaker has 'accepted' up to that time. However, limiting oneself (thinking) to Christ's sayings are advantageous as one sees a grandeur view, and also may see some of the 'things' that DO EXISTS and are dividing 'Christianity' (Catholic, Protestant, and Mormon) today worldwide. One may even have a global generational perspective, rather than a 'my little world now' perspective presently.
What a difference!!!!!!!
(For example; I can see why man before the flood seem to commonly live to 900 + years; now we think 100 years old is 'doing something right'.
It can be dangerously bad OR powerfully good, depending on the heart condition of the individual.
Many will pick and chose what they want to believe.
However, a true Christian will constantly and prayerfully search the scriptures for answers. And anything that can not be confirmed by scriptures is only speculation, and CAN NOT be held to as though it were fact.
Is Protestantism's most dangerous idea that Christians must be encouraged to think fo
