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Old 08-29-2009, 08:16 AM
IslandFun's Avatar
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Default Does Protestantism ignore the biblical teaching that the Church is the "pillar and fo

Found in 1 Timothy 3:15

Thanks in advance. God bless.
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Old 08-31-2009, 08:16 AM
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guess it depends on how you define 'the church". Some think its an organization. Others say its God's people.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:16 AM
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but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

The pillar and ground of the truth. The church is the pillar and support of the truth because it preaches it to the world, preserves it, and transmits it from generation to generation.

The word, not the church.
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Old 09-05-2009, 08:16 AM
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Not at all. The bible says we are the Church, meaning the body of believers.
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Old 09-06-2009, 08:16 AM
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How can it given all the corruption and perversity over the ages? Protestantism came into being as a proper response to the failure and evil of the church leaders. I have a feeling that the time is coming real soon when everyone will see who the real people of God's church are.
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Old 09-07-2009, 08:16 AM
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For them, the Church is God's people, so as not to recognize any central authority. They won't recognize a church leadership, but they'll recognize a book, then conveniently miss the fact that none of them can agree on what the book means.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:16 AM
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If they make the written word divorced from Apostolic Tradition and the Original Church,which no Protestant Church can make any claim to being,then they are ignoring it as the ones who accuse us Catholics of ignoring varied Bible passages when in fact they do so with greater abandon and inconsistency.
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:16 AM
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Raven, either they ignore it, or they found a way to twist it like they normally do.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:16 AM
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AN UNBROKEN HISTORY



Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today?s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church?s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members? even some of its leaders?have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church?s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.



FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH



If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813?822)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23?32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church?s official teachers?the pope and the bishops united with him?have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12?13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25?27, Rev. 19:7?8, CCC 823?829)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This dozen?t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21?23).

But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19?20, Rev. 5:9?10, CCC 830?856)
Jesus? Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19?20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius?s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19?20, CCC 857?865)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary?s special role, and much more ?even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.



Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth



Man?s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic?not through man?s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20).

He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus? authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12?13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.



THE STRUCTURE OF THE CHURCH



Jesus chose the apostles to be the earthly leaders of the Church. He gave them his own authority to teach and to govern?not as dictators, but as loving pastors and fathers. That is why Catholics call their spiritual leaders "father." In doing so we follow Paul?s example: "I became your father in Jesus Christ through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15).

The apostles, fulfilling Jesus? will, ordained bishops, priests, and deacons and thus handed on their apostolic ministry to them?the fullest degree of ordination to the bishops, lesser degrees to the priests and deacons.

The Pope and Bishops (CCC 880?883)


Jesus gave Peter special authority among the apostles (John 21:15?17) and signified this by changing his name from Simon to Peter, which means "rock" (John 1:42). He said Peter was to be the rock on which he would build his Church (Matt. 16:18).

In Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke, Simon?s new name was Kepha (which means a massive rock). Later this name was translated into Greek as Petros (John 1:42) and into English as Peter. Christ gave Peter alone the "keys of the kingdom" (Matt. 16:19) and promised that Peter?s decisions would be binding in heaven. He also gave similar power to the other apostles (Matt. 18:18), but only Peter was given the keys, symbols of his authority to rule the Church on earth in Jesus? absence.

Christ, the Good Shepherd, called Peter to be the chief shepherd of his Church (John 21:15?17). He gave Peter the task of strengthening the other apostles in their faith, ensuring that they taught only what was true (Luke 22:31?32). Peter led the Church in proclaiming the gospel and making decisions (Acts 2:1? 41, 15:7?12).

Early Christian writings tell us that Peter?s successors, the bishops of Rome (who from the earliest times have been called by the affectionate title of "pope," which means "papa"), continued to exercise Peter?s ministry in the Church.

The pope is the successor to Peter as bishop of Rome. The world?s other bishops are successors to the apostles in general.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:16 AM
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Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today?s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.) Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing.

Jesus? Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19?20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius?s time, which means it went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp
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Old 09-18-2009, 08:16 AM
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Yes they do, because it doesn't fit in with their agenda.

Believing themselves in the right, and in order to convince people to accept their ideas, the Reformers needed to find a Higher Authority than the Magisterium of the Bishops, the Councils and the received Tradition of the Universal Church. They found it in the idea of the primacy of Scripture and in the supposed religious practices of the early Christians.

The Reformers argued that this was their intention, but unfortunately, it is not what they did. In fact the early Church does not resemble Protestantism much at all. When the beliefs and practices of the early church are examined through the writings of the first centuries, it looks a great deal more Catholic than it does Protestant. The early Christians were led by bishops, they believed in the Real Presence of Jesus's body and blood in communion, in baptismal regeneration, apostolic succession, penance, confession, prayers for the dead, the role of Mary as the New Eve and as perpetual Virgin. And they did not believe in the sole authority of scripture.

What the Reformers did was to come up with a novel doctrine, entirely new to Christianity, which declared that ONLY the Bible could be used to determine doctrine and practice. Therefore everything else handed down by the Apostles and the Church from the earliest days must be thrown out. Unfortunately, once the authority of the Ancient Church, and Apostolic Tradition have been cast aside as worthless, Scripture becomes capable of many opposing interpretations. Scripture can also be misused, either by selective quotation, or by trying to "prove" or disprove doctrines by their absence.

Relying on the Bible is not wrong.The Bible is inspired scripture. It's the subtle addition of the word "alone" to this doctrine that is wrong. The implication is that everything else that came down to us from the Apostles, the early Church and its Councils is false and must be ignored.

Actually, despite teaching Scripture Alone, most Protestant churches accept teachings (or traditions) that are not in the Bible. The most important of these is the doctrine of the Trinity. Others include the Creed, the Canon of the New Testament, and festivals like Christmas and Easter.

The Reformers said that the Bible had one clear meaning. They also argued that it taught one clear doctrine - Protestantism. But as new Reformers emerged in the wake of Luther, it soon became evident that each Reformer had his own interpretation of what the Bible meant. For Luther, the Bible told him that the body and blood of Jesus were truly present in the Communion. For Zwingli the Bible said the exact opposite. For Bucer, the Bible approved infant Baptism, Menno Simons disagreed. Calvin believed the Bible taught we had no Free Will and we were predestined either to Heaven or Hell, others bitterly disagreed. Some Reformers believed all property should be held in common, others persecuted them for that belief.

The truth is that the Bible is an immense and complex book. There is an infinite number of doctrines that could be constructed based on its various verses. This has been the revelation of Protestantism. 25,000 different Protestant denominations have been recorded in the United States alone. Each one believes that their specific doctrines are based on the correct interpretation of the Bible.

The Bible as we know it did not exist for hundreds of years after his death. Jesus left his teaching authority to the Church.

Acts 1.8: But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

Similarly in Mark 3:14, and 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach (not write) the gospel to the world. There is no commandment to write, and no indication that the oral apostolic word died in the fourth century. It was the Apostles who carried Jesus message and passed it down to succeeding generations. The New Testament proceeded from the traditions of the Apostles and the Church.

The problem of understanding Scripture, and its correct interpretation, existed then as well as now. How was it dealt with?

Acts 8.30: Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked. 31: "How can I" he said "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

From this we can see that the Church carried authority for the explanation and interpretation of Scripture. Why was this? To ensure that the Apostolic teaching remained true, and that the Church - the Body of Christ - remained One. Without this Apostolic unity of teaching, the Church would inevitably splinter into thousands of contending fragments.

(Matthew 16:18)

He also promised that He would be with the Church always till the very end of the age. (Matthew 28:20)

He promised that the Spirit would lead the Apostles and their successors in truth for ever. (John 14:16-17)

Paul calls the church the pillar and foundation of the truth,
2 Timothy 3.15. "...you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the Truth."

The Catholic Church decided the contents of the New Testament, and preserved the Christian Bible for over a thousand years to the time of the Reformation. If the Church had at any time at all in that period become corrupt, why did it not just destroy or re-write the scriptures?

In fact Church Theologians through the centuries knew what the Bible contained and were not alarmed by it. They knew that the whole Bible, taken in context backed up what the Church taught.

Only if certain verses were taken out of their biblical context and given undue prominence would trouble arise.

Sola Scriptura, the Protestant belief that the Bible Alone and by itself is sufficient to determine all Christian doctrine, is clearly disproved by experience.

Without the Authority of the Historic Church and Apostolic Tradition, doctrinal anarchy quickly develops. Protestant Churches, ALL claiming to be guided by the same bible and the same Holy Spirit, have come up with almost as many different doctrines as there are churches.

The Churches guided by Apostolic Tradition, on the other hand, (including the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches), have, in contrast, maintained a remarkable unity and stability of doctrine and belief over a period of two thousand years.
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