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Old 11-30-2008, 02:47 AM
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SHK SHK is offline
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Default how does the church of christ restorationists deal with the thief on the cross?

is not the argument that the thief was under the OT a bogus ad hock argument?
after all, Jesus was dead when the thief passed.
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Old 12-02-2008, 02:47 AM
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Yet for the thief, it was still 'Today'.
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:47 AM
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They can't. God's word is against all the weak Christians who preach water baptism for salvation:

Romans 6:3-6 - Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? (Luke 12:50 proves it is not water-baptism) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. ~ Note: So baptism is crucifying the old body of sin and then no longer being a slave to sin. That is done by God when we become a believer. The goodness of God leads us to repentance (2:4). So being baptized is becoming a believer. Now try this being baptized...

Mark 10:38,39 - But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They said to Him, "We are able." So Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized." ~ Note: Jesus was not talking about going in the water again. To drink the cup and be baptized is referring to the suffering and death that awaited Him (Mark 14:36). Herod killed James in Acts 12:1,2. John was exiled for a while to the island of Patmos. He was persecuted greatly. They both got the Lord's baptism. If you can suffer for Christ, then you will teach the truth against false doctrine and not be concerned about the negativity you get from so-called Christians.

Mark 16:16 - "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." ~ Note: Some water baptism for salvation preachers try to use this verse to support them. Then I use this verse to show that it backfires on them. This is another verse that supports me in proving that baptism is what happens when we believe. I can say this because the last half of the verse does not say if you are not baptized you will be condemned. Only 1 was needed at the end of what will make the person condemned because both are tied to each other. God is the One who baptizes us (as into His family by His work of regeneration of our Spirit). It is the work of God that does it, not the work of a man with water. In other words, the verse is saying he who believes and has God do a work in them by making them born again by the Holy Spirit shall be saved, but he who does not believe will go to hell. You see, there is a first thing that WE must do before God does the work in us to get us saved, but if we don't do that 1st thing then we will be condemned and the 2ND thing (being baptized) obviously doesn't get done by God in us because we didn't do the requirement to believe.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free -- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. ~ Note: This is not water baptism. It is the work of regeneration by the Holy Spirit that gets us baptized into the body of Christ. We become saved when we are born again by the Holy Spirit. We then obey God by the working of His Spirit in us. God does not force us to get saved. We have free will to make the choice to turn to Him and then repent by His leading us to repentance. God then makes us born again, baptized into His body. God has and uses His power to make us born again, but we have to believe, turn to Him, and repent for that to happen.

Ephesians 4:4-6 - There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM, one God and the Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. ~ Note: This is about being saved, so all you water baptism preachers are offending all Christians who got set free from the slavery to sin by the power of God's Holy Spirit when they got born again by playing the part of Satan the accuser of the brethren by saying they are not saved because God is not in them.

1 Peter 3:21 - There is also an anti type which now saves us -- BAPTISM (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. ~ Note: Not the removal of the filth of the flesh means not water baptism saves us, and an answer of a good conscience towards God is further proof that baptism is what God does to us when we believe/have faith/repent from sin = what it takes to be a Christian saved from going to hell.
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:47 AM
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The church was not established until the Day of Pentecost (after Christ's resurrection). When Jesus said, "Today thou will be with Me in Paradise", He forgave the thief's sins. The thief could then enter into the place where righteous souls wait for the judgment. He was technically under Jewish law at the time he was assured of that. What difference does this make anyway? Worry about your own salvation instead of nitpicking about something that happened 2,000 years ago.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:47 AM
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Why did Abraham not observe the Passover feast? There are at least 2 reasons:

1. The events this feast represented had not yet occurred during his lifetime. How could he remember something that had not yet occurred?

2. The command to keep this feast had not yet been given. How could he keep a commandment that had not yet been issued?

The blood of Christ washes away our sins and it was shed at Christ's death.. (Romans 5:8-10, Revelation 1:5) It is at baptism that we contact His death. (Romans 6:3-13) How can we be washed by the blood if we have not contacted Christ's death where the blood was shed?

Some point to examples, such as the thief on the cross, BEFORE Jesus issued his command of baptism. (Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:18-20, please read Luke 24:47 along with Acts 2:5 & 38.) He could not have obeyed a command that had not yet been issued. Jesus commanded baptism AFTER the thief was already dead. (The baptism of John the baptist was in effect before this, but this is not the same thing - see Acts 19)

Secondly the death, burial, and resurrection that baptism now represents had not occurred at that time. How could he be baptized into Christ's death, when Christ had not yet died? How could he have been ?buried with Christ? (Col. 2:12) when Christ had not yet been buried? How could he rise from baptism ?in the likeness of His resurrection? when Christ had not yet risen?

Also, as I mentioned earlier, it is at baptism that we contact Christ at His death. How did the thief come into contact with Christ's crucifixion? HE WAS THERE! He had direct contact with Christ at His death. WE ARE NOT IN THAT POSITION! It is through baptism that we contact His death!

Those before Christ's death lived under the Old Testament. The New Testament came into effect when Christ died and rose again. (Hebrews 9:15-17) And remember, it was after His death that Jesus commanded baptism (Mark 16:16, Matt. 28:18-20) All those who now live after that point in time are subject to the New Testament and to that command.

A person's "last will and testament" is in effect AFTER the person has died (Heb. 9:17) and the will is probated. Property does not change hands until the executor verifies the terms of the will are valid. The central theme of Christ's New Testament is the Gospel which is the good news of the death, burial, and resurrection (1 Cor. 15:1-2). This Testament was not complete until Christ had rose, and it came into effect when He gave the Great Commission. The New Testament would not be complete without the burial and resurrection. Until that happened, the Old Testament was still in force. By the time the New Testament came into force, the thief was dead.

And, how do you know the thief was not baptized earlier in his life? Because he displayed some knowledge about Jesus and the coming kingdom, some say he may have been an erring disciple of John the baptist. If this were the case, he may have been baptized by John.

But, the Bible doesn't say! We can not definitely say he was baptized, nor can we say he was never baptized. The truth is we don't know, therefore, your argument is based on an assumption that cannot be pr oven from scripture! Your argument is based on knowing he was never baptized! Again, the Bible does not say either way!

Finally, Jesus had the power to forgive sins while He was on Earth! (Matthew 9:6) Jesus forgave the thief, and the thief did not have long to live after that. It is very likely that the thief did not commit any additional sins before he died. Since all of his past sins had been forgiven, he would have died free from the guilt of sin. Even if you were to think the NT was in effect before he died, he had committed no (new) sin for baptism to "wash away"! (Acts 22:16)
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