Are many Roman Catholics privately "uncomfortable" about the official teachings on pr
I've tried this experiment on multiple Q&A forums and the results each time have been the same: After just a few dismissive replies, the answers are few, even while other questions get lots of Catholic answers.
I've noticed that as soon as I post 1Tim 2:5 in particular (about Christ as the only mediator and mentioning Mary as the "matrix"), the discussion goes silent. Likewise when I ask if praying to the saints can include praying to my godly but deceased grandfather. (Nobody has yet told me that official saints can hear earthly prayers but the "average saints" cannot.)
So I've wondered: Is prayer to the saints basically a "folk custom" of "old Catholicism" and that is why many Catholics are very quiet about it, or will say why it is done by some but "I personally don't pray to saints"?
And is this something that is viewed differently by U.S. catholics versus others around the world?
My own view, as a non-Roman Catholic, is that any prayer is good prayer, and if some people find it easier to pray by the intercession of saints (official or otherwise) than to a remote and ultimately unknowable Trinity, then that's perfectly understandable. Human beings who lived holy lives and are now counted among the faithful departed (including, no doubt, your godly grandparent) give a human face to a God whose essence is too imperious and distant to comprehend.
I would rather Catholics prayed through the saints than that they didn't pray at all.
I'm still trying to figure out why some Protestants are so hung up on what Catholics believe. As long as they're not telling you how to pray, what difference does it make to you? They have their beliefs and you have yours. And then there are people who think both of your groups have wacky beliefs. So what?
You mustn't have talked to any actual Catholics that knew ANYTHING about their faith. No one said your grandfather couldn't pray for you if he were in heaven. We know the saints are in heaven, and he may still be in purgatory.
Also, Jesus is the mediator to God. Mary doesn't mediate to God, but to her son (duh).
Let's do some research on the actual dogma before speaking.
I am not sure what you mean. I see Catholics address this all the time openly and in a forthright way. No one is uncomfortable answering it. I'll star the question for you.
My understanding is that there is no "mediator" because the prayer isn't directed to the saints or to Mary. Catholics ask Mary (or the saints) to pray for THEM. Which is no different than asking a friend or family member to pray for you.
It's a matter of what Catholics actually do being misunderstood or misrepresented by non-Catholics (and especially anti-Catholics).
These thoughts of intercession are not scriptural and are of pagan origin.
Jesus Christ said: ?You should pray like this: ?Our Father in heaven, .?.?. ?? So prayers are to be addressed to the Father. Jesus also said: ?I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you ask for anything in my name, I will do it.? (Matt. 6:9; John 14:6,?14, JB) Thus Jesus ruled out the idea that anyone else could fill the role of intercessor. The apostle Paul added regarding Christ: ?He not only died for us?he rose from the dead, and there at God?s right hand he stands and pleads for us.? ?He is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.? (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25, JB) If we truly want our prayers to be heard by God, would it not be wise to approach God in the way that his Word directs? Jesus Christ said: ?You should pray like this: ?Our Father in heaven .?.?. ?? He also said: ?I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. .?.?. If you ask for anything in my name, I will do it.??Matt. 6:9; John 14:6,?14, JB;
Will prayers to the Father through Jesus Christ be received with as much understanding and compassion as they would if they were directed through someone who has shared the experiences of womankind? (Mary Worship) Concerning the Father, the Bible tells us: ?As tenderly as a father treats his children, so Yahweh treats those who fear him; he knows what we are made of, he remembers we are dust.? He is ?a God of tenderness and compassion, slow to anger, rich in kindness and faithfulness.? (Ps. 103:13,?14; Ex. 34:6, JB) And of Christ it is written: ?It is not as if we had a high priest who was incapable of feeling our weaknesses with us; but we have one who has been tempted in every way that we are, though he is without sin. Let us be confident, then, in approaching the throne of grace, that we shall have mercy from him and find grace when we are in need of help.??Heb. 4:15,?16, JB.
Eph. 6:18, 19, JB: ?Never get tired of staying awake to pray for all the saints; and pray for me to be given an opportunity to open my mouth and speak without fear and give out the mystery of the gospel.? (Italics added.) (Here encouragement is given to pray for the saints but not to them or through them. The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 670, acknowledges: ?Usually in the N[we] T[testament], all prayer, private as well as public liturgical prayer, is addressed to God the Father through Christ.?)
Rom. 15:30, JB: ?I beg you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of the Spirit, to help me through my dangers by praying to God for me.? (The apostle Paul, himself a saint, asked fellow Christians who were also saints to pray for him. But notice that Paul did not address his prayers to those fellow saints, nor did their prayers on his behalf replace the personal intimacy that Paul himself enjoyed with the Father by means of prayer. Compare Ephesians 3:11, 12,?14.)
all roman catholic devotions are heaven sent for their individual enrichment and exp oration,these devotions all come with graces,gifts,blessings,and signal graces that not only work off my justice due to their individual sins so they can avoid purgatory,but also help them climber towards perfection,these devotions are for all Christians,not just catholics.we love you all,the holy family.practice the holy rosary,practice makes perfect.
Protestants don't worship Mary because she never ascended into Heaven. The story was originally a legend until a 7Th Century Pope decreed that it was to become a fact. The Saints are also creations of the Vatican.
Everyone who receives Christ into their hearts are " saints " just another word used for separating
ourselves from the world view. Christ said He is the only way to our Father in Heaven, praying to
saints. That is old Pagan Rome teaching and worship of many gods. " Pantheon "
The only thing that remains the same is the scriptures read on Sunday mass is the same all around the world!
Sometimes, personal experiences can make a person devoted to a specific saint or Mary. For example, countries like Mexico have the Guadalupe Virgin Mary and the story behind it is fascinating and real, meaning hard to prove wrong.
Similar to other countries were some very spiritual people get to "see" the virgin or saint in "special" situations. Virgin Mary apparitions, like in Yugoslavia and the Virgin of Peace
http://www.medjugorje-online.com/
If you get an experience like his, wouldn't you believe it? pray for it?
What about those who heal with their hands!
A the end, I think is all about faith and what you truly believe in. My opinion, is that I don't see why your grandfather wouldn't hear you.
As Kevin has mentioned, Catholics ask Mary or a saint to pray " for " them. To be frank, also in many cases, people seem to get better results and answers to their prayers this way or they sure as hell would not being doing it. As an analogy, in my life I found in companies as well as the military that you can sometimes get excellent results for your requests and opportunities if you chat on the side to the boss's or commanders wife as they will put in a good, kind word for you in their spouse's ear at the right time.
If Christ has a real problem for us to ask His mother or a saint to speak on our behalf to Him, I'm sure that all the prayers and miracles would have had disastrous results over the centuries and such procedures would have been dropped long ago.
All false religions have some form of Works program i.e. some way to work your way in to Gods good favor.
We are saved by the goodness and kindness of God and no one can be good enough to qualify. The Law is our school master to humble us into accepting Christ and His finished work on the Cross. He did not fail at the Cross He fulfilled Prophecy and became our redemption. Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God.
If you are watching the History channel BS you are getting Satan's spin on the truth of Christ Jesus.
Jesus said no man takes my life ... (the soldiers fell) ... I give it freely.
Jesus said I have finished the work which you have sent me to do.
Many went to their deaths because they said that He was raised from the dead.
Jesus had the victory over sin (perfect life) and Death He was raised up from the dead.
The unbelievers mocked him and said others He raised from the dead why can't He help himself.
He did rise from the dead and many testified that he did BUT the people in the House of Israel wanted this world power and money more than they wanted to be right with God. So they made a lie and many fell for the lie.
As many as accept them He gives the power to become Children of God with and inheritance in Christ Glory.
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Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trustee in man, and Maker flesh his arm, and whose heart departed from the LORD.
Denomination's are condemned by Paul Who is the Apostle to the Gentiles.
That is everyone else that is not descended from the House of Israel.
1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
No would be the answer we are baptized into Christ Jesus by His spirit.
Men and their social clubs are wrong before God.
The Bible says that we come from every nation, tongue and people.
That does not mean Any God will do
BUT
people who call with a clean heart are answered and God makes the appeal to them.
So we are left with is God a respecter of persons or the savior of the world.
He has been fair from Adam and Eve until Jesus and He continues to be fair from Jesus until the end of times.
Those who do not know God ... those who mock him ... and find fault .... are in one category and those that love him in another.
The offer from Him is come and reason with me and I will be your father and you will be my son.
You reject that is your decision !
I believe :
The World is created!
Why?
The complexity of the Single Cell and DNA says .... created by who ?
History, the Bible and Archeology confirm Jesus as the logical answer.
Because
The Bible has so many things that are said before they happen and then they happen.
The Bible proves itself
So ....
Jesus created the Whole World and nothing was made that He did not make.
Why?
John 1 says the Word was made flesh JESUS
So now we say to ourselves What about Jesus ?
We start to search for him and prove him and ask him to reveal himself.
And He does both with messengers, the word and prophecies.
When we ask him to be our savior He gives us a down payment on our salvation the Holy Spirit which in the spirit guides us into all truth ... but we must study to show ourselves approved unto God a workman that needs not to be ashamed ... Rightly Dividing the word of Truth with God's Spirit and with men also but always with God being the last word.
ASKER said:
And is this something that is viewed differently by U.S. catholics versus others around the world?
Bill Said:
The church of Jesus Christ is not a group of people or a building but those around the world who have his spirit and we that are Christian's recognize His spirit of truth and the spirit of a Lie.
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
1 Thessalonians
Chapter 3
9
2 What thanksgiving, then, can we render to God for you, for all the joy we feel on your account before our God?
10
Night and day we pray beyond measure to see you in person and to remedy the deficiencies of your faith.
11
Now may God himself, our Father, and our Lord Jesus direct our way to you,
12
and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, just as we have for you,
13
so as to strengthen your hearts, to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones. (Amen.)
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1thessalonians/1thessalonians3.htm
1 Thessalonians
Chapter 4
13
We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
15
Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, 3 will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together 4 with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18
Therefore, console one another with these words.
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1thessalonians/1thessalonians4.htm
<<Are many Roman Catholics privately "uncomfortable" about the official teachings on prayer to the saints & Mary?>>
No, of course not.
<<I've tried this experiment on multiple Q&A forums and the results each time have been the same: After just a few dismissive replies, the answers are few, even while other questions get lots of Catholic answers.>>
You're overlooking the fact that Catholics are constantly approached by non-Catholics with "concerns" over intercessory prayer to saints. Most Catholics don't care what non-Catholics think, especially since when the non-Catholic thinks he/she knows more about Catholicism than Catholics themselves.
<<I've noticed that as soon as I post 1Tim 2:5 in particular (about Christ as the only mediator and mentioning Mary as the "matrix"), the discussion goes silent.>>
That's because it IMMEDIATELY becomes clear to the Catholic that NO MATTER WHAT they say, it Will mean nothing to you, so why are you surprised when Catholics don't waste their time with you?
<<Likewise when I ask if praying to the saints can include praying to my godly but deceased grandfather. (Nobody has yet told me that official saints can hear earthly prayers but the "average saints" cannot.)>>
Any soul in heaven or purgatory can intercede on behalf of the one making the entreaty.
Now you can no longer say "nobody has yet told me. . . "
<<So I've wondered: Is prayer to the saints basically a "folk custom" of "old Catholicism" and that is why many Catholics are very quiet about it, or will say why it is done by some but "I personally don't pray to saints"?>>
No. Intercessory prayer to the saints in general, and Mary in particular, is based on Scripture and Oral Tradition. Mind you, it's not mandatory that a Catholic engage in this practice, but it's there if one wants it.
<<And is this something that is viewed differently by U.S. catholics versus others around the world?>>
No. Catholic Dogma is the same throughout the Catholic Church anywhere and everywhere in the world.
The intercession of fellow Christians?which is what the saints in heaven are?also clearly does not interfere with Christ?s unique mediator ship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should intercede:
"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1?4).
Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ?s role as mediator.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
I am a Catholic in the US, in fact I studied the Catholic faith for 20 years before joining.
I am not uncomfortable with this teaching, I think you need to understand the difference between asking Mary and the Saints to Pray for us and worshiping them.
I think that the reason that the discussion goes silent is that Catholic Christians are dumbstruck wondering why you would think that 1Tim 2:5 has anything to do with praying for each other or forbids in some way prayers for each other. I see no reason why you could not ask your deceased grandfather to pray for you. Why would you think that some saints can hear prayers and others can't. Anyone in the Communion of Saints can pray for another whether they are part of the Church militant, suffering or triumphant. Perhaps you will share with us why you do not ask others in the Church to pray for you. Would you pray for someone else if they asked you to pray for them?
First of all it is disingenuous to state that the practice of praying for each other has no biblical foundation, we are instructed in Scripture to have a prayer life for others as it is part of God?s commandment to love one another.
(2Co 5:8 DRB) But we are confident and have a good will to be absent rather from the body and to be present with the Lord.
The Catholic Church does not teach that it is absolutely necessary for one to ask for the intercession of saints for salvation. The Church does teach that prayer to God is necessary for salvation for all believers. For a Catholic it would be wrong to ignore the liturgical worship offered to God at feast days for the saints and the prayers asking for their intercession.
The Communion of Saints is a dogma of the ancient Church and is recorded in the apostles Creed. It simply states that the faithful because of their relationship with Christ are alive even after the death of their flesh and worship with us. To us the Church is made up of the Church militant who represents all those believers living out their hope in the flesh.
(Phi 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
(Phi 2:13 DRB) For it is God who worker in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.
It consists of the Church Suffering who are those who are temporarily in need of further legation from sin so that they may enjoy the presence of God.
(2Ma 12:46 DRB) It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
Lastly, the Communion of the Saints consists of those who have won the race:
(Phi 3:14 DRB) I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.
Their immortal souls are in heaven in God?s presence:
(Rev 5:8 DRB) And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.
The universal stream connecting all of God?s creation is His love, which we take on in our baptism into our journey towards sanctification. This is not an emotional but a desire placed in us by the Spirit of God that endures as a desire for those other than ourselves and this love extends even to our enemies. This is truly a love that comes only from God and is a foreign concept and nonsense to those who have not received God?s Slavic grace. This desire within our souls does not end with the death of our flesh but continues into eternity where the saints through their intercession in prayer encourage us in our race and assist us to endure unto our union with God.
I think that some people of faith, who do not understand the Communion of Saints, somehow believe that asking saints to pray for us is detracting from our love or our trust in God. In truth it is impossible, if we truly love as God commands and has given us the grace to understand, not to pray to those whom we love and in turn we expect them to return that same love to us by praying for us and presenting our prayers to God.
Well your experiment has failed. Asking the Saints and The Blessed Mother to pray for us is in the bible!
We ask the Saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray for us because Proverbs and St. James tell us the Prayer of a Righteous Person does much so who more Righteous than the Saints and the Mother of God?
Proverbs 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked, But He hears the prayer of the righteous.
James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Revelations Tells us that the Prayers of the Saints are brought before God by the Angels
Revelations 8:4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.
As to the Blessed Mother being a Co-matrixRic turn to the wedding a Cana and at the foot of the cross. But to be clear, Jesus is the one Mediator between us and God.
The wedding Party came to Mary and not to Jesus
John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."
The blessed Mother instructed the people what to do
Jhn 2:5 His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."
Jesus did not refuse his mother's request
Jhn 2:7 Jesus said to them, "Fill the waterpots with water." So they filled them up to the brim.
We see how Jesus obeys his Mother and at the Foot of the Cross he tells St. John (The Disciple that he loved) "Behold your Mother!"
John 19:27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own {household.}
Now do you think St. John would refuse her request?
Prayer to saints is not a "folk custom" at all. Many Catholics do not pray to saints, but that does not mean they think it is wrong to do so. They just don't do it themselves - like some people don't attend daily mass. Prayer to saints is part of Catholicism, and so is daily mass attendance when it's available, but it is not a sin or a defiance of Church teaching to refrain from doing either of these things.
We all may ask other people to pray for us. Catholics do not consider saints to be no longer persons. Saints are persons - human persons who have been received into the eternal presence of God. It is as reasonable to pray to saints to ask them to pray for us as it is to ask any other person to pray for us.
Saints are in the direct and eternal presence of God. It only makes sense to ask them to pray for us.
I am Roman Catholic.
Happy Easter.
Peace be with you.
Do you understand the terms that you're tossing around so carelessly?
Jesus is indeed the only Mediator in the matter of resolving our sin debt to the Father. A mediator is one who settles a dispute between two parties. Jesus alone can go to the Father and say, "Father, there is no longer any enmity between you and Wolfe because I paid her sin debt on the Cross."
Jesus is NOT our only intercessor, however, because an intercessor is one who puts in a good word for another person. When you ask a friend or family member to pray for you, they are interceding with God for your needs. And since Mary and the Saints are alive in Heaven (Jesus told us so, according to Luke 20:38), they can be our intercessors with the Father whenever we ask. They lived lives of great holiness and obedience to God, so they would be logical choices to pray for us.
As far as whether small-s saints can pray for us, the problem with that is that we don't know just how truly godly and righteous they really were. What we thought we knew of them might not be what God saw in their hearts and souls, and until we get to Heaven, we will have no way of knowing for sure. That's why the Church sifts through the lives of those people who are up for canonization, meticulously examining everything about them before an official pronouncement is made. You can trust the Church's declaration that someone is truly a Saint, whereas our judgment of a person may be faulty.
Finally, the proposed doctrine of Mary as "Co-Mediatrix" is a controversial one even in the Church, but the term does not mean what the average person thinks it does. In this instance, the prefix "Co" means "with," not "equal to." Mary's co-operation with God in bringing our Savior into the world means that she co-operated in our redemption. No one is saying that she is equal to her Son or that she is God. She isn't, and we don't make that claim. But she *did* play a significant role in giving us our Savior, and that is the basis of the potential doctrine.
I have no idea of how other Catholics around the world feel, but I do know that the views I've expressed are very common among U.S. Catholics. We regard asking Mary and the Saints for their prayers as a very important part of our spirituality and not merely a "folk custom."
I trust that this post answers your questions and has not been 'dismissive.' If you plan on arguing every point that I and other Catholics have made, however, please be aware that you will be arguing with air. I've said all that I intend to on this subject.
there are many instances of people being asked to intercede on behalf of others to god in scripture, a few of the prophets interceded for their people.
even in the time of Jesus
You do know that this is one of the most over-asked questions we get right? We answer this question several times a day and if I see it more than three times a day, I don't answer because what's the use? No one seems to see that little icon that pops up and says "Wait! We might already have the answer you're looking for!"
I'm not uncomfortable about this teaching at all. We're not worship ping the Saints or Mary. We're simply asking them to intercede our prayers for us. It's like asking a friend to pray for you when you're going through a rough time. You're asking the friend to pray for you, not worship ping the friend. There is a distinct difference between worship ping and honoring. We believe that the Saints and Mary are in heaven, along with our loved ones. So what better people to intercede our prayers for us.
About the verse that you shared, you didn't read the whole thing. The four verses preceding it says,"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Intercessory prayers on behalf of others are "good and pleasing to God."
You also misunderstand Christ being Hyman's mediator. He is very unique because He is the only person to be both God and Man. Therefore He is the only one that bridges the two together. Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant just as Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant.
If you are Catholic you are Catholic. The teachings of the Catholic church are the same everywhere. Its not like some protestant churches, where you could all be baptist, but follow what your pastors beliefs. In the Catholic church, we have different pastors for different churches, but we all believe in the SAME exact teachings, and follow the same exact teachings. Unless you claim to be Catholic but don't believe in some of the teachings then u are NOT a true Catholic. But yeah Catholics all SHOULD believe the same thing unless you really aren't Catholic.
Most Catholics are not privately uncomfortable about asking for the intercession of saints. The intercession of saints in an ancient Christian belief. The writings of the Church Fathers and scribblings on the catacombs prove that the praying for intercession of saints and angels date back to the first century.
The Church does not teach that the "average saints" cannot intercede for the living.
Being in the Catholic Faith We are in Communion to Lord God Jesus and to each other... So we are very comfortable to asked Prayers or to Pray for everyone not only to our Fellow Catholics but all of Humanity's... Asking all the Saints and Mama Mary who are in Heaven to Pray for Us (Together) in Prayers are The Most Powerful Prayers Indeed! Saludos to all our fellow Roman Catholic Faithfuls... Through Prayers we stand... See You all in Christ!
Are many Roman Catholics privately "uncomfortable" about the official teachings on pr
