Don't Roman Catholics really do pray to other gods than the Trinity?
When confronted with Biblical text which confirms Christ as the only intercessor for Christians, Roman Catholics often deflect saying they pray "through" saints, not "to" saints, but that seems a distinction without a difference which few Catholics make, including the Vatican. In fact when Catholics pray to dead Catholics who haven't even been declared saints yet, and that prayer is credited for a miracle, it becomes part of the proofs needed for beatification. Christians get accused of polytheism over the Trinity, but Catholics pray to any dead person they choose and they aren't forbidden, so how is this not formal necromancy, for which scripture prescribes death?
VATICAN CITY ? Evidence is mounting that the pope will soon approve the miracle needed to beatify Pope John Paul II, setting the stage for a major celebration this year for a Catholic Church trying to recover from the clerical sex abuse scandal.
Italian news media have been reporting that in recent weeks Vatican-sponsored panels confirmed that a young French nun was miraculously cured of Parkinson's disease after praying to the Polish-born John Paul.
Pope Benedict XVI now must sign off on the miracle and set a date for the beatification, the first major step to possible sainthood.
Polish Bishop Tadeusz Pieronek, former No. 2 of the Polish Bishops' Conference and an old friend of the late pope, told The Associated Press on Thursday that he understood an announcement could come Friday, though he stressed he didn't have independent confirmation.
I thought about answering the Catholic responses point by point, because these are sincere people who are relying on the authority of their teachers, but that only makes it a choice between my persuasiveness and a church that claims it can deny them heaven if it so chooses. That's not much of a choice, I admit. SO here is my question to the catholics who answered:
WHO HAD AUTHORITY TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION BEYOND DEBATE?
I would assume whatever flavor of Christian you are, you would agree that on any topic where Jesus personally taught on a given topic, no church or Christian authority has power to set aside the teachings of Christ? When Jesus was asked directly by his disciples, "Lord, teach us to pray":
Luke 11:2 He said to them, ?When you pray, say: ??Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread. 4 Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.??
I don't understand it either when you can just go to the source. The Christ teaches us to pray with the Lord's Prayer as a guide line. It tells us the pray to "the father". However I have not done a in depth study of this religion.
"Pray" means ASK. You can see this in the dictionary and legal documents:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray
http://google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=KXX&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22plaintiff+prays%22&aq=f&aqi=g-v1&aql=&oq=
Praying to someone does not mean one is worshiping that person.
you got one part right anyhow JESUS DOES ALL THE PRAYING i would just stopped there if i was you.................i have never heard of through saints ... they think they pray to saints .. we all think we do the novenas including me.... but i know what the mystery is... i also see that JESUS TYPES TOO MUCH TOO............ remember one thing GOD KNOWS IT ALL.... this is Polly why we struggle so much with LOGIC .. some think the saints pray for us .. doesn't really matter if you know the mystery and who the BIG GUY IS.. and its through not through...saints cost money too... man life sucks.. probably think well if GOD wont do what i want when i want they will try the saints.. and the saints cost money....
I agree with you. If they address a particular person in their prayer, as in "Hail Mary," then they are trying to talk to that person. They are praying to that person. To say they are praying through that person is to dissemble. We are not authorized to pray through anyone, except to pray in the name of Jesus.
Catholics had more books in their bible than protestants.
Most of the differences stem from things that are in those books.
For instance, one book indicates that people who are dead can still pray. And are in fact, a little better at it because they are in heaven with God.
So the idea is to ask people who are in heaven already to pray to god for you. As Catholics believe saints are in Heaven, they're kind of a sure bet for being there. You could ask for dead old dead Uncle Steve to pray for you, but you wouldn't really know if he's in heaven, so its a long shot.
JOHN 14:6 JESUS SAID, " 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comet unto the Father, but by me".
NOT MARY, NOT POPE NOT ANY PRIEST, NOT ANY PERSON BUT CHRIST JESUS THE PROPITIATION BETWEEN MANKIND AND GOD.
ACTS 4:12 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved ( THAN JESUS).
BLASPHEMY TO PRAY TO ANY NAME EXCEPT CHRIST JESUS OUR FATHER AND SAVIOR.
GRIEVANCE SIN TO GRIEVE AND GROAN THE HOLY SPIRIT BY COMMITTING OUR SINS TO MARY, POPE, PRIEST OR SAINT.
i you look closely at scripture you will see in many instances the early patriarchs interceding on behalf of the people . Abraham at Sodom and Gomorrah, moses in the desert during the exodus, kings allowing their mothers to sit at their right hand and interceding on behalf of the people
Have you read in Revelations, the part of the Angels approaching the altar with vials of incenses and the prayers of the Saints?
Now, if think about it, you will realized that glorified Saints are in heaven already and thus no need for their own prayers. They would simply worship and be in awe. So, this MUST mean that the prayers are those of the earthly saints not yet glorified by GOD (you and I). As such, this in itself is a depiction of intercessory prayer, where the glorified Saints are carrying our prayers, on our behalf, to the altar of GOD.
"In fact when Catholics pray to dead Catholics who haven't even been declared saints yet, and that prayer is credited for a miracle, it becomes part of the proofs needed for beatification." ---- As Catholics, we are taught that we are not to pray to anyone who is not a Saint. For our loved ones who have passed, we pray for them. However, it is GOD who glorifies a Saint, and it is the Holy Spirit which reveals to the Church whom GOD has made a Saint, so that they can be properly canonized... so the the people can know what GOD has done.
"but Catholics pray to any dead person they choose and they aren't forbidden, so how is this not formal necromancy, for which scripture prescribes death?" ---- Here is where you are wrong. You are assuming we do something that we don't. Now, in reference to necromancy, if you read the bible in it's context, you will see that what is forbidden is praying to soothsayers, fortune tellers, and the dark spirits. Once you understand this, you will understand the difference.
Also, please remember that Jesus along with a couple of his disciples head up the mountain, where they see GOD the Father, Moses, and Elijah. Now, we know that GOD the Father is GOD, Elijah, we know was taken up to heaven... however, we read that Moses went up the mountain and died. So follow me on this one... Moses is a dead guy, yet Jesus along with his Disciples offer up prayer to the three. If this were wrong, would Jesus not stop them all dead in their tracks? Instead, they continue with the prayers... So... If Jesus did it himself, who are YOU to say that it is wrong and interpret what Jesus meant?
We pray FOR the dead, that they may reach eternal life with God.
We can ask Saints to pray for us if we have any troubles.
And, the Trinity IS God. We believe that God is both human and Divine.
He makes up the 3 persons of the Trinity.
We only believe in ONE God.
Others accuse us of worshiping statues. But no, it is simply Catholic art.
I really can't stand it when there is so much ignorance towards Catholicism.
Please, don't just assume things. This is our faith and please respect it.
I can't really understand your question, but, I really hope I cleared some things up for you.
We do pray to people other than the trinity. But prayer is not worship any more than someone who only calls you for favors is a friend. We ask the saints to pray for us, just as Protestants ask for prayers from friends and family in times of trouble.
Jesus performed his first miracle at the behest of Mary. She asked him to help and he turned the water into wine. We ask her for help, just as did the host at the wedding in Canna. Christ raised the dead, only after being asked to do so by their families.
Catholics believe all followers of Christ are Saints. You are conflating sainthood with Canonization, which is another thing entirely; but that's another question.
Here is a list of scriptural references to the saints and intercessory prayer:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
Don't Roman Catholics really do pray to other gods than the Trinity?
some think the saints pray for us .. doesn't really matter if you know the mystery and who the BIG GUY IS.. and its through not through...saints cost money too... man life sucks.. probably think well if GOD wont do what i want when i want they will try the saints.. and the saints cost money....
