How do Roman Catholics reconcile their practice of praying "through" Mary & saints wi
Thanks in advance for all answers !
David B -
With all due respect, that's not true.
What is praying but speaking to and / or asking something of someone ?
Sentinel -
I have no objection to LIVING Christians praying FOR ME. That is CLEARLY (?) not the same as praying to God through DEAD ONES.
Communication with the dead is the practice of spiritualism, which the Bible, God's word, categorically forbids.
Incidentally, the general evangelical (and biblical) definition of the term "saints" differs greatly from the Roman misconception.
Evangelical Christians generally understand "saints" to refer to ALL blood-bought, saved-by-grace-through-faith, born-again, believers in God through Jesus Christ. On occasion, English translations of the Bible also use this term to refer to angelic beings.
The erroneous RC application of the term "saint" is used -please correct me if I'm wrong- in regard to dead "Catholics" venerated & allegedly communicated with by those connected to the Roman church. Totally umbilical.
Again, please feel free to correct me, but I don't believe that you will find a single scripture which positively, explicitly condones such a spiritualistic practice. Pure superstitious paganism...
David B -
Hi.
The Bible, God's word, says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14).
NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that we are to receive guidance from dead "saints". Please feel free to quote a scripture if you can prove otherwise, friend.
Do you believe the Bible is God's word ? It says that through faith in Christ you can come directly to the Father (God).
"For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again, but you have received a spirit of SONSHIP in which we cry, Abba, Father !" (Romans 8:15, caps for emphasis).
You can only receive that spirit of son ship by being born-again -transformed from within - through faith in Jesus Christ, His death & resurrection, and not through the guilt-ridden bondage of the Roman Catholic salvation-by-works religious system.
Roman Catholics do not pray to or through Mary or saints, They are asked for Guidance in tough times.
EDIT:
Well it was for me in Ireland. You pray to god and ask for guidance of saints. they are two different things. Saying it isn't true is Wrong unless you also grew up in Howth, Dublin and Were my priest.
Another charge commonly level led against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediator ship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ?s mediator ship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mists) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19?20).
The intercession of fellow Christians?which is what the saints in heaven are?also clearly does not interfere with Christ?s unique mediator ship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should intercede: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1?4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ?s role as mediator.
You can pray to anyone you want. There are some people who even pray to their ancestors.
Don't take First Timothy 2:5 so freak in literal. Lighten up. Life is good.
I'm not a Catholic, but I hear a lot of criticism of Catholics. Why not criticize the Baptists for a change? They got some really weird doctrines if you care to take a look.
Thanks for asking that. I wonder that myself. God Bless.
They use 1 Tim. 2:1 as an answer, but this is referring to live people praying for other people, I don't see anything in there about praying to dead saints! And what about Mary? They pray directly to her, as if she is a goddess. I don't believe the Mary they pray to is Jesus' mother (not that that makes it Right) but, Mary, Queen of Heaven. The mother/child cult of the Bible. I think many are deceived by this, especially those worship ping in the Catholic faith.
For those who are talking about angels interceding, ANGELS ARE NOT SAINTS, OR DEAD HUMANS. They are servants of God, created especially for that purpose. They do have access to heaven and earth. Dead people don't! The saints in Revelation are the saints who are worship ping in heaven in the future, when we will be in heaven, also.They are redeemed men. We are all saints who follow the Lord Jesus Christ. Saints are here on earth as well. And, it is not up to any church to grant anyone sainthood. That is God's Job!!! I think if the dead saints could see that they are being prayed to, they would be horrified by it. I know I would. Jesus said "Leave the dead to the dead." You cannot communicate with the dead. No one has been ruptured yet. Their souls are in heaven or hell, but we cannot communicate with them. It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible about Mary being a mediator, and helping with any prayers. We pray to God, the Father, THROUGH JESUS, HIS SON. There is no need for any mediator in heaven besides Him! Jesus TORE DOWN THE CURTAIN IN THE TEMPLE. We can pray for each other, for sure, that's what it means. Pray for each other.
Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 ? deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two ?witnesses? John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah?s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 ? Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints ? and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing ? then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be ?like angels in heaven.? This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 ? the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus' passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 ? an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter?s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with others prayers.
2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.
2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ's mediation.
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one anther's burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.
Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians' earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.
Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.
Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.
Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn't Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.
1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinateLyo us, why pray at all?
1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.
2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ's mediation because Christ desires this.
2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.
1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.
2 Tim. 1:3 ? Paul says ?I remember you constantly in my prayers.?
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon's intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Heb. 1:14 ? the author writes, ?Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation??
Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.
James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.
James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.
James 5:17-18 - James refers to God's response to Elijah's fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.
1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.
1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.
3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius' health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.
Rev. 1:4 ? this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The ?24 elders? are said to refer to the people of God ? perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the ?four living creatures? are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 ? the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood ?on those who dwell upon the earth.? These are ?imprecatory prayers,? which are pleas for God?s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 ? in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers ?rise up? before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children?s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
I am not religious, but I see no problem with the practice.It's like asking a family member to put in a good word for you. It's done all the time in ordinary life. Why shouldn't it be done in the supernatural ?
As Evan said, Roman Catholics are not praying to or through Mary and the Saints.
A good example is the words to the "Hail Mary". The actual "prayer" part is, "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners". You're basically asking Mary to pray to God on your behalf.
Fundamentalists challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray for us. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.
Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
Jesus himself warned us not to mess with small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 18:10).
Because he is the only God-man, Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1-4), including those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for [the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (James. 5:16).
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God's throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
Recommended Resource: The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and The Word of God by James McCarthy.
We ask Mary and the saints to pray for us as any Christian will ask another to pray for him or her. We believe that all in Heaven are alive as Jesus promised. He promised that we will have eternal life.
We believe that Mary is a co-matrixRicth Jesus. This is "co" as in co-pilot. A co-pilot does not pilot the plane but assists the pilot in piloting the plane. Mary gains this distinction because she gave Jesus His human form, His body. As we know now, every human is composed genetically by one-half from each parent. Jesus is one-half genetically the same as Mary.
Jesus is the mediator with God. Only He alone, in His humanity and Godhead can mediate our way into God's presence. Mary assists the mediation. The Saints pray for us as the saints on Earth pray for us.
Hope this helps you. It helped me.
Yours in Christ Jesus, Grace (a Protestant convert)
1 Timothy 2:5 states:
For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human.
Catholics fully agree with this statement. Jesus is our one and only mediator.
However intercession is different.
"Teach us how to pray," the disciples said to Jesus. (Luke 11, 1)
Jesus answered by teaching them the prayer we call the Our Father or The Lord's Prayer.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give US this day OUR daily bread.
Forgive US OUR trespasses,
as WE forgive those who trespass against US.
And lead US not into temptation,
but deliver US from evil.
The entire second part of the Lord's prayer is intercessory prayer where we pray for ourselves and others (us, we, and our).
Christians praying for each other and the world is intercessory prayer and is accepted and practiced by all Christan denominations (that I know about).
Before Jesus Christ died for our sins and opened the gates of heaven there were no saints in heaven. Therefore there are no Old Testament writings that would mention them.
Very few of the new Christians died before most of the New Testament was written. Therefore there is little in the Bible about asking saints to pray for us.
However the last book of the Bible does talk about the saints in heaven praying.
Revelation 5:8: Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
Revelation 8:3-4: He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
The Holy Spirit guided the early Church in many things not explained in the Bible including how does the Body of Christ (believers) living on Earth relate to the Body of Christ (saints) living in heaven. We are still one Body.
Catholics share the belief in the Communion of Saints with many other Christians, including the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopal, and Methodist Churches.
The Communion of Saints is the belief where all saints are intimately related in the Body of Christ, a family. When you die and go to heaven, you do not leave this family.
Everyone in heaven or on their way to heaven are saints, you, me, my deceased grandmother, Mary the mother of Jesus, Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II.
As part of this family, you may ask your family and friends living here on earth to pray for you. Or, you may also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Andrew, or your deceased grandmother living in heaven to pray for you.
Prayer to saints in heaven is simple communication, not worship.
And prayer to the saints is optional not required.
the problem is you have selected one verse from the bible to make your point, whereas catholics use it all in context. i could pick and choose verses to support the catholic opinion but you will still reject it(it seems from your additional comments that you are trying to make a point as opposed to trying to understand our position). if you are interested here are some sites that may help you on this and other problems you have with the church that gave and made possible for you to have a bible.
all the sources teach in accordance with the Catholic book known as the bible. see also a catechism and the writings of the early church fathers. you may not agree with it all but it will answer your questions.
How do Roman Catholics reconcile their practice of praying "through" Mary & saints wi
